Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[vol_scouter]

17 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Well, the local councils are in a horrible situation, just now with National STILL HERE, so if National goes away...?

And National DECREES to local councils, does not "ask."

 

National can 'decree' some things such as the requirements for Eagle and HR issues.  On other issues, National advises or asks.  The relationship between the national council and the local councils is very misunderstood.

[vol_scouter]

18 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

Nobody  cares.  Sell.

 

They ARE threats.

I do not know anyone who responds with sympathy to threats.  Threats raise hackles.

BSA National, before filing bankruptcy, had the absolute BEST data on the number of abuse cases alleged against unit leaders, scout youth, local councils, chartering organizations, and so on.  And all the details thereof-National insisted that all council files on abuse cases were sent to National.  And BSA National, in light of, or in reliance on, that knowledge, filed a Chapter 11 reorganization in bankruptcy.  BSA National lit the fuse on the bankruptcy rocket.

"They" being National?  Well, my understanding is that National does not "ask" Scout Executives.  National "directs." Probably subtly, but if a Scout Executive does not follow National's "company line" that Scout Executive does not get promoted-his/her career stagnates or crashes.

Consider, that 238 councils, more or less, all fell in line to contribute to the Settlement Trust the amount that National set as the local councils' contributions. And why was that so?

"Local Councils are independent corporations," says National.  Who believes that?  If local councils are truly "volunteer run" and independent, in order to obtain a 100% council compliance with National's Settlement Trust contribution "request," a majority of the board members on each and every council board would have to vote to approve the "contribution."

I do not know the specifics, but I know the process and can make reasonable assumptions and inferences from the limited information available.

So, what likely happened, is that the Scout Executive advised the Council President that National had set their council's contribution and the Executive Committee (a subset of the Executive Board-much smaller) approved the contribution amount.  The full Council Board, many there for resume building, just went along, or perhaps were only told after the event. Or never told.

National abhors nothing more that its lack of control.

Like the lead bird in a flock of starlings, when National turns, the whole flock turns in unison. 

The local councils formed an ad hoc committee that has a system for representation of the various sizes of councils.  That committee took the requested contribution and developed a complex method that takes into account the number of claims, the statute of limitations for those claims (if any), the financial viability of the council, and the funds that the council could contribute.  This process has been very secretive with local Scout Executives not knowing any details.

Once a council-by-council contribution was determined, all ~250 council Executive Boards met totally independent of other councils and national to develop a strategy to find the funds requested.  It is my understanding that all the councils approved their requested amount though I cannot confirm that.  All local councils are independent 501(c)3 corporations and operate so.

[ALongWalk]

Looking for thoughts from this group - I am involved in leadership at the district level in my council, especially in FOS. Over the last few weeks I have been seeing more and more listings for lawsuits against the local council and what I assume are chartered partners. I assume this is in regards to the sexual abuse claims. Here is what I am wondering - Is it reasonable for local leaders to get some kind of explanation about these lawsuits? What if I am talking to a potential donor and they ask me about it? Maybe the right answer is that the council can’t talk about it because it is being sued.  I would guess unit leaders would like to have something to tell parents or their CO also.  Thanks.

[T2Eagle]

12 minutes ago, ALongWalk said:

Looking for thoughts from this group - I am involved in leadership at the district level in my council, especially in FOS. Over the last few weeks I have been seeing more and more listings for lawsuits against the local council and what I assume are chartered partners. I assume this is in regards to the sexual abuse claims. Here is what I am wondering - Is it reasonable for local leaders to get some kind of explanation about these lawsuits? What if I am talking to a potential donor and they ask me about it? Maybe the right answer is that the council can’t talk about it because it is being sued.  I would guess unit leaders would like to have something to tell parents or their CO also.  Thanks.

My advice is that you speak only to what you know.  If someone asks you about a particular suit, tell them you don't know the details and aren't familiar with it --- because you're not.  Offer to either point them to someone at council who can better answer their question, or offer that you'll try to get someone to better answer their question. 

If people want to know about Youth Protection in general tell about your own experiences: what do you, and your unit, and the leaders you know and work with do to keep kids safe --- both from abuse and from all the other things that can go wrong in scouts and in life.

Don't speculate.  The worst answer would be guessing at something you're not sure of.

Edited February 1, 2022 by T2Eagle

[ALongWalk]

3 minutes ago, T2Eagle said:

My advice is that you speak only to what you know.  If someone asks you about a particular suit, tell them you don't know the details and aren't familiar with it --- because you're not.  Offer to either point them to someone at council who can better answer their question, or offer that you'll try to get someone to better answer your question. 

If people want to know about Youth Protection in general tell about your own experiences: what do you, and your unit, and the leaders you know and work with do to keep kids safe --- both from abuse and from all the other things that can go wrong in scouts and in life.

The worst answer would be guessing at something you're not sure of.

Thank you. I appreciate your advice on this!

[ThenNow]

46 minutes ago, ALongWalk said:

Over the last few weeks I have been seeing more and more listings for lawsuits against the local council and what I assume are chartered partners. I assume this is in regards to the sexual abuse claims.

Where are you seeing the "listings" and in which state is your Council?

[ThenNow]

On 1/28/2022 at 5:51 PM, vol_scouter said:

This process has been very secretive with local Scout Executives not knowing any details.

 

On 1/28/2022 at 5:51 PM, vol_scouter said:

All local councils are independent 501(c)3 corporations and operate so.

Someone is violating Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction. 

[ALongWalk]

7 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Where are you seeing the "listings" and in which state is your Council?

The listing are in the the classified section of the local business journal. It is a journal that comes out weekly….I think most metro’s have a version of it. Would rather not list the state but will say it is in the southeast. 

[ThenNow]

7 minutes ago, ALongWalk said:

The listing are in the the classified section of the local business journal. It is a journal that comes out weekly….I think most metro’s have a version of it. Would rather not list the state but will say it is in the southeast. 

Ok. Thanks. I understand. I was curious if the state is one that is actually or might soon be "opening" its statute of limitations for look-back lawsuits. As a survivor watching the drama of the case, I have certainly considered filing against both entities you noted, regardless the current status of my state's SoL.

Edited February 1, 2022 by ThenNow

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, ALongWalk said:

Looking for thoughts from this group - I am involved in leadership at the district level in my council, especially in FOS. Over the last few weeks I have been seeing more and more listings for lawsuits against the local council and what I assume are chartered partners. I assume this is in regards to the sexual abuse claims. Here is what I am wondering - Is it reasonable for local leaders to get some kind of explanation about these lawsuits? What if I am talking to a potential donor and they ask me about it? Maybe the right answer is that the council can’t talk about it because it is being sued.  I would guess unit leaders would like to have something to tell parents or their CO also.  Thanks.

1 hour ago, T2Eagle said:

My advice is that you speak only to what you know. 

@T2Eagle is right.  Id add on further.  Coordinate with your DE or your a council staff.  I'm sure there is a plan of communication even if the plan is that they have nothing yet to say this month.  It is okay to push back on the DE.  If you are getting curious unit leaders, let the DE know that you need something.  

In our district, it's the DE's job or even above him.  I've yet to the RT commissioner or other volunteers speak to it.  They are just not speaking from a point of knowledge.  

About as far as I'd share without good coordination is letting scouters know to look at articles on Bryan on scouting or other guided sources.  Beyond that, I'd focus on the next district camporee or membership drive or MB weekend or ... 

 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

Agree with others, do NOT speculate. Get them the person who should, stressing SHOULD, know what is going on and can answer their questions.

Sadly in my council, the Powers That Be either do not know what is going on, or are playing dumb. When the PTB had their first "Town Hall" about the future of the council, including lawsuits,  they said they didn't know some of the answers to the questions being asked, and when I responded with info from this website, they were surprised. And that wasn't the first time I knew stuff before the council told folks due to this website. Once I was asked to take down info that the council had not approved yet, but the link was to a national press release that was posted on this website.

 

[Eagle1993]

To be fair, I think only 1 person really has a good understanding of what is about to happen ... and she does not work for the BSA.  BSA, TCC, and other lawyers may have some guesses where this is headed and they are probably well informed.  I expect the Ad Hoc committee is probably updated.

Now, as you go further out, less and less is known.  Perhaps a few senior leaders of each council are updated, but even then, what they are told is probably limited.  

So, what is known outside a very limited group isn't much.  There is a proposed plan.  If it is approved as is, then councils are protected.  If it is not, then who knows.  If I had a claim against a council, I would file a lawsuit now just in case the bankruptcy falls through (or perhaps hoping it falls through).

We will know a LOT more in late Feb/March. 

If brought up during FOS, I would deflect to the DE (who will likely deflect upwards).

Personally, I plan to contribute again.  Yes, there is a fair chance my contribution this year may go to lawyers or payouts, but I've spent money on worse things.

Edited February 1, 2022 by Eagle1993

[ThenNow]

6 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

If I had a claim against a council, I would file a lawsuit now just in case the bankruptcy falls through (or perhaps hoping it falls through).

Thus my interest in SoL status in the subject state. Are people filing because of a new law, indication of one coming down the pike, hedging against a failed plan or exclusion of third-party non-debtors, or just bored and need a distraction?

[vol_scouter]

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

 

Someone is violating Aristotle's Law of Non-Contradiction. 

The local councils are independent 501(c)3 corporations that voluntarily formed an ad hoc committee to carry certain functions including determining how much each council should contribute to a claimant's trust.   The governance of this ad hoc committee must have been transparent to the councils but the details the formula was developed has not been released.  The information that was used has been made available to the Scout Executives but not how it was weighted.  There was general agreement with the methods and the formula was applied.  To my knowledge, all councils approved their share to go to a claimant's trust.  

Does that clarify my comments?

[ThenNow]

2 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

The local councils are independent 501(c)3 corporations that voluntarily formed an ad hoc committee to carry certain functions including determining how much each council should contribute to a claimant's trust.   The governance of this ad hoc committee must have been transparent to the councils but the details the formula was developed has not been released.  The information that was used has been made available to the Scout Executives but not how it was weighted.  There was general agreement with the methods and the formula was applied.  To my knowledge, all councils approved their share to go to a claimant's trust.  

Does that clarify my comments?

Yes. Thank you. I am aware of all that, but have some interaction with LCs that contradicts the conclusions. I would be interested to learn how these numbers were "put" to each and every Council, as far as a, "take it or be left in the line of fire" conversation. I know some Councils don't especially feel the Ad Hoc Committee is genuinely representing their best interest. Completely anecdotal evidence, I admit. 

I was trying to point out that not many companies let some non-governmental, non-judicial entry tell them what to do and how to do it. This is particularly so when it comes to money. My experience is not enormous, but quite diverse across both not for profit and for profit companies. This may be my sarcastic and cynical self being heard from again. When I consider it, the scenario seems to confirm many contentions that Local Councils are not really, really, really independent. I get the legal paperwork and general day to day governance argument, but I think the proverbial slip is showing. My teeny weenie addled brain's opinion.