Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[skeptic]

3 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I couldn't disagree more.  I believe he cares more about survivors than he does in the institution known as the BSA.  He will leave the salvaging of BSA to those who believe it can be salvaged.

Sorry, but I believes in dollars, period.  He could care less about damage today based on past issues.  Again, I do not see him as a good guy, simply a greedy on on a power trip.  JMO of course.

[Eagle94-A1]

8 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Let's be clear what Kosnoff has said.

1) He had stated that scouting should continue. He's repeated that over and over, but that scouting needs to continue WITHOUT BSA.

NOT TRUE!

In this interview https://dianerehm.org/shows/2019-08-20/a-moment-of-reckoning-for-the-boy-scouts-of-america-and-a-history-of-sexual-abuse  .

He stated he wanted the complete dissolution of the BSA and IF something like Scouting is still needed, it starts from scratch.

Again the IF it is still needed, from the tone of the response, he doesn't believe Scouting is needed. 

 

 

 

[1980Scouter]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

I knew you'd have this available. Thanks!

Anyway, $3.3B / 750k scouts is $4400/scout. What other youth organization has anything close to that? What was the plan for all that money? How was it helping achieve the aims of scouting?

I'm sure its spent on something, but my impression is the plan, somewhere along the line, morphed from help units into grow the endowment.

 

You are so right. My LC has 20 million in property and investments but they act like they do not have two dimes to rub together. 

I had no idea they had this much in reserves. I made a large donation for a camp project. Six months later they sold the camp. I was never able to get any reply where my money went. So yes it is all about $$$ for salaries.

Edited September 1, 2021 by 1980Scouter
Typo

[CynicalScouter]

12 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

NOT TRUE!

Yes, it is true. Listen again to what he said. If scouting is to move on, BSA has got to go.

He has also said on his Twitter feed he favors #savescoutingEndBSA

https://twitter.com/hashtag/savescoutingEndBSA?src=hashtag_click&f=live

His argument, which you can agree or disagree with, is that if you really love scouting and are committed to scouting, you MUST at this point scuttle BSA and move on to the next organization that takes its place.

I disagree, but that's neither here nor there.

Moreover, he is the ONLY attorney to publicly have this view. EVERY OTHER law firm and attorney group has indicated that they are in favor of a Chapter 11 in some form or fashion.

Kosnoff's important, and his loud and visible, but he doesn't represent a majority view by any stretch in the desire to kill of BSA.

[CynicalScouter]

43 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Sorry, but I believes in dollars, period.  He could care less about damage today based on past issues.  Again, I do not see him as a good guy, simply a greedy on on a power trip.  JMO of course.

He has conflicting desires between a) getting all the money the victims can and b) destroying BSA. As I laid out earlier, if he wants to maximize victim compensation, Chapter 7 with a living (if weakened) BSA is the way to go. If he wants to kill BSA, that results in his clients getting less than in the first scenario.

He cannot be simultaneously a) in it of the money and b) out to kill BSA. It is either/or.

[CynicalScouter]

29 minutes ago, 1980Scouter said:

You are so right. My LC has 20 million in property and investments but they act like they do not have two dimes to rub together. 

Councils, indeed many organizations, are absolutely loathe to sell property because once it is gone, it is gone. Same with investments. In fact, it is considered a bad business practice and an indicator of bad financial management to dip into your endowment too much.

Edited September 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[johnsch322]

45 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

NOT TRUE!

In this interview https://dianerehm.org/shows/2019-08-20/a-moment-of-reckoning-for-the-boy-scouts-of-america-and-a-history-of-sexual-abuse  .

He stated he wanted the complete dissolution of the BSA and IF something like Scouting is still needed, it starts from scratch.

Again the IF it is still needed, from the tone of the response, he doesn't believe Scouting is needed. 

 

 

 

Let me first thank you for posting the link but I think That your "NOT TRUE" is quite false.  He gave dissolution as a possible scenario but wasn't adamant about it.  He did say clean house but I am pretty sure he meant new leadership.  After listening to the interview I actually have more respect for him.  It totally reinforces my view that he is not in this for the money (though everyone likes to be paid) but instead is looking out for the survivors and for future youth.

[vol_scouter]

4 hours ago, MattR said:

Why have lions and tigers if kids get burned out before they get to the best part of the program?

Because the Program Committee members reviewed considerable evidence that children are selecting the extracurricular activities in kindergarten that they will do for the next several years and that this phenomenon is part of the reason that Cub Scouts membership was declining.

[vol_scouter]

3 hours ago, MattR said:

I knew you'd have this available. Thanks!

Anyway, $3.3B / 750k scouts is $4400/scout. What other youth organization has anything close to that? What was the plan for all that money? How was it helping achieve the aims of scouting?

I'm sure its spent on something, but my impression is the plan, somewhere along the line, morphed from help units into grow the endowment.

 

The BSA membership will rise throughout the year so 1 M is a better number.

[yknot]

22 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Because the Program Committee members reviewed considerable evidence that children are selecting the extracurricular activities in kindergarten that they will do for the next several years and that this phenomenon is part of the reason that Cub Scouts membership was declining.

I know of very few kids who do what they did in kindergarten in 2nd, 4th, 6th, and 8th grade. Except for the diehard few who decide they love something. I would also say that other kid activities don't have the same challenge that cub scouts does for younger kids. It repeats itself, over and over again, and gets very repetitive and boring especially as they get to that critical age when they are getting close to crossing over. That doesn't happen in other kid activities.

Edit: And it also duplicates some of the school curriculum. Again, another challenge other kid activities don't have. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by yknot

[CynicalScouter]

Possible hint of what the non-monetary damages elements of the BSA plan may either a) spell out of b) be required after the bankruptcy settles as part of the plan to have the entire BSA YPT system reviewed. This was the BIG non-monetary demand the TCC had (along with release of the IV files). The following is part of the bankruptcy package that USA Gymnastics has agreed to.

Most relevant to BSA I think would be the possible introduction of an INDEPENDENT outside entity to field and investigate sexual abuse claims as well as an entire department, including auditors and lawyers, to do spot checks.

Also, USAG is required to publish the names of all those in their version of the IV files (not victim names, but the names of those removed from USAG).

I could very, very easily see the TCC and/or the independent reviewer they bring in demand that all BSA units have a) a YP compliance person and b) be subject to random inspection and audit.

 2. USAG’s Non-Monetary Commitments And Reforms.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47282/c66b1b09-6d90-4e99-85c9-243103212938_1552.pdf

It goes on for 4 pages. My own synopsis (many of these reforms are listed as already happened/have happened).

1. Points 1-4 dealt with governance of the organization.
2. Point 5-7 are safety. The adoption of "a new Safe Sport Policy, which mandates reporting, defines specific types of misconduct, sets standards to prohibit “grooming” behavior, and establishes greater accountability." https://usagym.org/pages/education/safesport/policy.html The expansion of the Safe Sport Department to train and educate, including a Director of Safe Sport Education and Policy, a Safe Sport Legal Counsel, four Safe Sport Investigators, a Safe SportA dministrative Manager, and paralegal with dedicated Safe Sport responsibilities plus reporting posters indicating how to report abuse everywhere
3. Points 6-7 are about the "gymnastics clubs" in local areas. They must met the same standards as USA Gymnastics regarding Safe Sport Policy, posters, Minor Athlete Abuse Prevention Policy, etc. Each local club must also have a Safety Champion to ensure compliance.
4. Point 8 is that all USAG employees are charged with doing everything the can in their capacities to work on athlete safety.
5. Point 9 is the establishment of a hotline, email, and website for reporting abuse. All reports must go to an independent third party (U.S. Center for Safe Sport)
6. Point 10 is that USAG will work with a Survivors committee and the independent U.S. Center for Safe Sport.
7. Point 11 is that USAG's version of the ineligible volunteer file will be made public with the names of ineliglble and suspended members listed on a website.
8. Point 12 is websites, training, and other education about athlete safety.
9. Point 13 is that National Team Athletes have a spelled out detailed right to a Protest Policy that allows them to speak out about abuses, or anything, and NOT lose their spot on the National team
10. Points 14-17 are about the culture, including positive coaching, audits about the culture, etc.

There are other points, but it wraps up with this

Quote

The  Debtor  and  the  Survivors’  Committee  are  discussing  a  process  to provide for historical accountability, healing for all stakeholders, with focus on the survivors, and future supervision, monitoring, auditing and implementation of the Plans’ Non-Monetary Commitments.  The  Survivor’s  Committee  and  the  Debtor  commit  to  continued  discussions regarding  the  hiring  of  an  independent,  trauma-informed  Expert,  with  experience  in  childhood sexual abuse involving betrayal trauma/institutional betrayal. The Survivors’ Committee and the Debtor  commit  to  continued  discussions  about  the  work  and  make-up  of    a  Restorative  Justice Task Force.

 

Edited September 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[MattR]

4 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

BUT a lot of that is locked up in real estate/capital fund.

I agree. Still, they have a lot of assets. And since they have so much they've gotten in the habit of spending a lot of their efforts making that pile bigger. So the focus is on money. It is not on the aims or quality of program. If there's ever a choice between increasing membership, units, anything that brings in more money, or increasing the quality of units they always lean on more money. What is more important to a DE, increasing membership and units, or improving quality of existing units? Has a DE ever said let's take 3 weak units and combine them and support it so it's a quality unit and it just brings in more scouts. Eventually, when it's big enough we can split it in two and we'll already have trained volunteers. Or, is it that anyone with 5 kids and no experience that wants to start a unit is encouraged?

 

[MattR]

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

Because the Program Committee members reviewed considerable evidence that children are selecting the extracurricular activities in kindergarten that they will do for the next several years and that this phenomenon is part of the reason that Cub Scouts membership was declining.

And the reason they want to raise Cub Scout membership even though cubs get burned out before scouts is bringing in more money. As I said, membership is more important than quality.

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

The BSA membership will rise throughout the year so 1 M is a better number.

We're 3/4 of the way through that year and the troops in my district have been told they need to sponsor a pack because so many packs have completely collapsed. On the other hand, I think it gives us the opportunity to find kids that aren't burned out on cub scouts. We just need to figure out how to recruit from the middle schools.

[Eagle94-A1]

Sadly the professional's focus is on the  "3 M's: Membership, Manpower, and Money." And the order of importance varies from SE to SE.

And Membership needs to be 'Balanced Growth" i.e. units, Cubs, Scouts, Sea Scouts, Venturing , etc.

If a DE does not focus on balanced growth, even if it makes more sense to focus on existing units and increase Members and not Units, they are penalized. Even though it is easier to support an existing troop than to start a new unit. Especially in an area that cannot support more units, despite what the outdated data says.

 

 

[SiouxRanger]

5 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

That is a lot of hyperbole.

@Gilwell_1919:  If Churchill had said it, it would be called "oratory."