Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, elitts said:

I always wondered about that reasoning.  It's like it never occured to them that the reason kids that reached FC were more likely to stay was that they were the kids who liked the program enough to have spent 1-3 years working on requirements.  It's not like being awarded FC is going to make the kid that was going to drop out after the first year more likely to stay.

The research behind  FIRST CLASS,FIRST YEAR, has some flaws in it. The first flaw I recognized in it as a 15 year old Life Scout was that the research has no mention of activity levels of the units in the research. Not a one. If you got an active unit, you will have retention and advancement. As Hillcourt said, "OUTING is three-fourths of ScOUTING."  And if you are active they will stay. And as as Lord Baden-Powell said, " Advancement should happen as naturally as a suntan, it just happens in the outdoors."

The other thing flaw was including LDS units in the research. As I discovered later in life, LDS troops kept their 11 year old Scouts in a separate patrol, with an ASM and a Troop Guide assigned to them. I have been told there was a regimented program established for them where the 11 year old patrol did the same thing year after year. And that program was hyperfocused on getting Scouts to First Class by the time they turned 12. In many traditional Scouters' opinions, it was more Cub Scouts and not Boy Scouts, with the ASM acting more like a Den Leader, and the Troop Guide acting like a Den Chief. And that skewered the research. And since all male youth in the LDS church were automatically registered as Scouts, this further skewed the data.

Edited December 6, 2021 by Eagle94-A1

[Eagledad]

I didn't know about the LDS units, That makes a lot of sense. And, may also be why one year is used as the time limit. What I mean is I learned over the years that the majority of scouts who leave the program in their first year quit being active after summer camp. I started teaching that new scouts who stay active after their first summer camp will likely stay active for at least 3 years. 

But, I believe summer camp caps off the scouts impression of his scouting experience determines his future in the program. Of course they aren't officially dropped until the signup a year later.

Barry 

[ThenNow]

On 12/5/2021 at 1:32 PM, ThenNow said:

Question for Scouters: If you made a list of the top 5 things National needs to do to implement transformational change, what would be on it? No need to include elements of YPT. I would like to see if there is significant concurrence among you. From the list I’ve made, there are several elements that have been repeated many times by various of you over the 27 years I’ve been lurking. Thanks.

Guten morgen!

Look ⬆️!! See what that guy said who’s presently standing on my head. I genuinely covet your input. Many of you have had very astute observations over lo these many months and I am working to compile these ideas. I entreat thee, good countrypersons, please honor me by adding to my growing pile of theses. I am seeking 95. (Some of you get that.)

Danke. 

[InquisitiveScouter]

6 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Guten morgen!

Look ⬆️!! See what that guy said who’s presently standing on my head. I genuinely covet your input. Many of you have had very astute observations over lo these many months and I am working to compile these ideas. I entreat thee, good countrypersons, please honor me by adding to my growing pile of theses. I am seeking 95. (Some of you get that.)

Danke. 

As you eat this menu of annelids (you know...a Diet of Worms), when digested, would you mind giving us a synopsis, please??

[ThenNow]

54 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

As you eat this menu of annelids (you know...a Diet of Worms), when digested, would you mind giving us a synopsis, please?

I hope no one will be offended if some of the highly detailed recommendations don’t make the summary. I am trying to focus on changes that would be transformative.

For example, running through many of the conversations and said in various ways applicable to multiple contexts, it’s clear National is disconnected from the “ground.” That was pointed out quite literally within the practical recommendation that all exec’s need to go to summer camp and camp out four times each year. That is an excellent way to start addressing an acute, macro-level cultural, informational and relational deficit. It was also illustrated when all of you were luffing, wondering and wandering in the shadow secrecy of the bankruptcy, as well as myriad other historic issues. In a way, this forum put a spotlight on the problem and addressed it at the same time.

I’ve learned from you that BSA has no system or apparent desire to foster “management by walking around” or a rigorous, routine 360 degree self-examination. I don’t mean the desire is completely missing, but intent and purpose are only real if they are seen; lived out in the world of people, not ideas and platitudes. (That’s why I used the word “apparent.”) As it has been said, “Show me your faith [what you believe or say you believe] by your works.” I have been shocked by this BSA blindspot, frankly. I know exactly what I would have done as the Chapter 11 paperwork was about to be filed, but I am not them and they are not me. Ok. I would have done it before or concurrent with Roger being hired, but that’s really easy to say with hindsight. 

PS - Could there be (is there?) a different thread that talks about specific things BSA could do to foster transformational change, to include specific things that streamline, simplify and help you do your work? Dunno. The ideas are sprinkled all over this forum. I should have started picking the low-hanging fruit when I started noticing it. My bad. I know many of you have little hope of that kind of change so may see it as not worth the effort, at this point. 

Edited December 7, 2021 by ThenNow

[skeptic]

I find this current disconnect discussion interesting, as when I was a retail manager for a large company, they began the top down nonsense.  Most of the ones making these decisions once worked in stores and faced their market users in some manner.  And, at the store, and usually the next "level" they were aware of the realities of everyday interactions with both staff and customers.  But, then came the idea that it is cheaper to manage from above and it began the slow fall to almost oblivion.  Local stores no longer were able to viably serve their local needs, and specific departments were told to buy such and such in particular group estimates of volume.  This in turn, caused serious markdown issues in many stores whose cleientel was not responsive to the products.  Service had been a mainstay for decades, and specialty areas had true professional "associates" that were expert in their lines and worked on a commission basis.  Most made far more that way than a simple clerk, and they did it by "selling" the products to the matched patrons.  But, of course, some made too much money, even though it was earned by moving the merchandise, and so they changed the pay design and most of the experts either left or retired if they could, and many had many years.  But the sad thing is, was that what worked was not built upon, but rather cast aside for "modern" concepts.  That is how I was let go as a specialist jewelry manager after 20 years.  Ironically, the year they eliminated my job, our department had led the L.A. market in every category of profit and sales, and we were in the top five in the nation.  Yet, I lost my  job, as specialty managers were not needed anymore.  And, those tactics put them into out of control losses and recently bankruptcy as well.  Hmmmmm.

[skeptic]

13 minutes ago, skeptic said:

I find this current disconnect discussion interesting, as when I was a retail manager for a large company, they began the top down nonsense.  Most of the ones making these decisions once worked in stores and faced their market users in some manner.  And, at the store, and usually the next "level" they were aware of the realities of everyday interactions with both staff and customers.  But, then came the idea that it is cheaper to manage from above and it began the slow fall to almost oblivion.  Local stores no longer were able to viably serve their local needs, and specific departments were told to buy such and such in particular group estimates of volume.  This in turn, caused serious markdown issues in many stores whose cleientel was not responsive to the products.  Service had been a mainstay for decades, and specialty areas had true professional "associates" that were expert in their lines and worked on a commission basis.  Most made far more that way than a simple clerk, and they did it by "selling" the products to the matched patrons.  But, of course, some made too much money, even though it was earned by moving the merchandise, and so they changed the pay design and most of the experts either left or retired if they could, and many had many years.  But the sad thing is, was that what worked was not built upon, but rather cast aside for "modern" concepts.  That is how I was let go as a specialist jewelry manager after 20 years.  Ironically, the year they eliminated my job, our department had led the L.A. market in every category of profit and sales, and we were in the top five in the nation.  Yet, I lost my  job, as specialty managers were not needed anymore.  And, those tactics put them into out of control losses and recently bankruptcy as well.  Hmmmmm.

Connected to my tale was the year I voiced the idea that the middle level managment and office people that worked in the various regional and district offices should be put into the stores at the peak times when getting proper coverage was a serious challenge.  My thought was, of course, that they would reconnect a little with the reality of the customer.  Of course I was told I was nuts, even though most of those same workers were given holiday time off because their jobs were in hiatus pretty much.  Sound familiar to one suggestion here?

 

[ThenNow]

31 minutes ago, skeptic said:

they began the top down nonsense.  Most of the ones making these decisions once worked in stores and faced their market users in some manner.  And, at the store, and usually the next "level" they were aware of the realities of everyday interactions with both staff and customers.  But, then came the idea that it is cheaper to manage from above and it began the slow fall to almost oblivion. 

Two questions:

1) Was BSA ever connected to the ground, once the growth exploded early on and all manner of layers and fiefdoms were spun into motion; and 

2) Why was Roger selected to lead the organization into and through the bankruptcy, besides being a lifer with the engrained “BSA Nation first” mentality? I understand he has a long history of high level HR leadership in major corporations and there were sure to be RIFs. That limited basis makes sense. Fitting a leader to the moment in time, critical context and transition, not so much. 

Thanks to any who want to enlighten my addled noodled.

Edited December 7, 2021 by ThenNow

[skeptic]

39 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Two questions:

1) Was BSA ever connected to the ground, once the growth exploded early on and all manner of layers and fiefdoms were spun into motion; and 

2) Why was Roger selected to lead the organization into and through the bankruptcy, besides being a lifer with the engrained “BSA Nation first” mentality? I understand he has a long history of high level HR leadership in major corporations and there were sure to be RIFs. That limited basis makes sense. Fitting a leader to the moment in time, critical context and transition, not so much. 

Thanks to any who want to enlighten my addled noodled.

Have you read the book The Scouting Party"?

[ThenNow]

24 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Have you read the book The Scouting Party"?

Is it the one with old school campfire songs, exploded diagrams for building a 15’ bonfire and how to make cobbler for 25? Jk. I have not.

Does it answer my questions, presumably based on historical context that will give me map coordinates or breadcrumbs to find the answers?

Edited December 7, 2021 by ThenNow

[skeptic]

Unless I am confusing it with one of the many others I have read over the past decade or two, it discusses the interactions of professionals in the early days, including their often running the summer camps and having real interactions with real commissioners.  

 

[MattR]

6 hours ago, ThenNow said:

PS - Could there be (is there?) a different thread that talks about specific things BSA could do to foster transformational change, ....

Thank you for the laugh. There are many such bits of threads. There could be a sub forum.

Anyway, I will give you my thesis. I'm doing this on my phone so be patient.

The common complaint is that BSA seems to have forgotten what scouts really enjoy about scouting. Call it the core program. Or better yet, The Game. There are certainly other challenges like teaching adults, well, everything (outdoor skills, working with youth).

Where this comes from, from my perspective, is what we call silos and also really poor hiring and advancement practices. Look at the top levels of leadership and the silos are writ large. So is the board. The NEB is huge and has broken itself into lots of committees. The NEC is mostly a group of committee heads. It's not clear to me whether any committee is primarily responsible for The Game. So The Game has been ignored for a very, very long time. Even if there is a committee to protect the game from other committees, that would only mean one person on the NEC. The BSA itself also looks like these committees.

So, my thesis is that to fix the BSA the NEC needs to be replaced by the right people. All of the ideas of how to make scouting better will lead from that. Fixing advancement, summer camps, adult training, safety and all the rest will come from getting the right people in place that understand scouting. That starts with a real board.

The problem is the current members won't step down and the upper echelon of the BSA probably either doesn't have the power or knowledge on how to do that. It would likely take a true leader to convince the entire NEB to step down. Instead, we have a scape goat that was installed to take the fall (and is likely not legally liable for anything since he was a volunteer).

Edited December 7, 2021 by MattR
fat fingered submit

[ThenNow]

2 hours ago, MattR said:

fat fingered submit

Is this your new moniker or a jujitsu move? I like it for both, if anyone asks. 

My thoughts go to the same overall conclusion, but I will wait patiently for more submissions. (Get it?)

Edited December 7, 2021 by ThenNow

[qwazse]

On 12/6/2021 at 10:01 AM, ThenNow said:

I had an epiphany this morning. I know. Scary, coming from me. Here it is. BSA is an addict. …

PS - I am not only referring to survivors for that list of amends. I include you guys. Nothing on the stock yet. Still roasting beans.

But couldn’t one also say that about litigants? Have they done the really hard work of determining how safe the nation’s youth will be absent BSA (and the slew of other organizations now hesitant to front youth programs)? Isn’t looking for “the next big stick” an addiction of its own?

I follow your stories because relaying them is the most authentic way I can communicate to my scouts why some adults are taking their camps from them and driving the costs of being in their organization to unprecedented heights. I also hope that it will help an abused youth to find the strength to come forward sooner rather than later.

I also follow them because it reminds me that youth become more resilient more safely with me than elsewhere. I look at boys and girls who want to hike and camp safety, and I pick the organization best suited to train them and other young adults to do that. Then I stand in a field on a Saturday night watching their campfires fade praying they grow strong and good.

That’s my amends. Not waiting for BSA to do anything transformative. But, when I have a moment I’ll type my short list.

[ThenNow]

45 minutes ago, qwazse said:

But couldn’t one also say that about litigants? Have they done the really hard work of determining how safe the nation’s youth will be absent BSA (and the slew of other organizations now hesitant to front youth programs)? Isn’t looking for “the next big stick” an addiction of its own?

I follow your stories because relaying them is the most authentic way I can communicate to my scouts why some adults are taking their camps from them and driving the costs of being in their organization to unprecedented heights. I also hope that it will help an abused youth to find the strength to come forward sooner rather than later.

I also follow them because it reminds me that youth become more resilient more safely with me than elsewhere. I look at boys and girls who want to hike and camp safety, and I pick the organization best suited to train them and other young adults to do that. Then I stand in a field on a Saturday night watching their campfires fade praying they grow strong and good.

That’s my amends. Not waiting for BSA to do anything transformative. But, when I have a moment I’ll type my short list.

As to the last point, thank you. As to the balance, I am confused and may need bullet points. I’m not sure if I’m helping, being accused, used as the donkey who’s getting a tail pinned on and/or if you understood me to be asking amends from you. Maybe someone else can break it down for me, MC Hammer style, using few words. Balloon pants and pirouettes not required. All seriousness aside, I’m not sure I’m interpreting your post correctly. Apologies. (By the by, I have been hoping you’d respond with a list. I appreciate your experience, heart and wisdom.)  

PS1 - I was talking about National and the mindset I have come to understand.

PS2 (Not the gaming system) - I respect what you do with kids and that scouting is worth preserving. 100%. In fact, the stories you and others tell motivate me to know what you guys and gals think. I only wish I could’ve been under your watchful eyes and tutelage.

Edited December 8, 2021 by ThenNow