Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[CynicalScouter]

49 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

So do you believe that pennies on the dollar is just compensation and how are you advocating to get victims the best possible compensation?

Here, I'll show you what an answer looks like:

No, I do NOT believe that pennies on the dollar is just compensation and I am strongly in favor of getting victims the best possible compensation which, again, pennies on the dollar is NOT.

There. That's an answer.

Edited October 11, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[johnsch322]

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

Here, I'll show you what an answer looks like:

No, I do NOT believe that pennies on the dollar is just compensation and I am strongly in favor of getting victims the best possible compensation which, again, pennies on the dollar is NOT.

There. That's an answer.

I really would like a straight answer from @HelpfulTracks  He seems to be very good at not answering. Yes I asked him a hypothetical if it happened to you and I received an answer of it wouldn’t. When I tried again he said I shouldn’t ask hypotheticals. He makes statements about advocating for victims. He said he wants just compensation for victims but he won’t say what that is. By the matrix I have a minimum of 2.7 mil. In value. I wonder how much he thinks a fair amount of actual cash I should receive. 

[CynicalScouter]

2 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

By the matrix I have a minimum of 2.7 mil. In value. I wonder how much he thinks a fair amount of actual cash I should receive. 

2.7 pennies I would think.

Anything to save BSA and the camps.

Edited October 11, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[Eagle1993]

Ok, I think that is enough.  I believe @HelpfulTracks has answered the question.  I understand you are looking for a specific amount and the answer was provided in terms of general beliefs.  You are clearly at a point where you will have to agree to disagree.  

[johnsch322]

38 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Ok, I think that is enough.  I believe @HelpfulTracks has answered the question.  I understand you are looking for a specific amount and the answer was provided in terms of general beliefs.  You are clearly at a point where you will have to agree to disagree.  

I really wasn’t looking for a dollar amount answer. I really wanted to know if he thought pennies on the dollar was fair. His non answers are saying that he does. 

[HelpfulTracks]

2 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

So do you believe that pennies on the dollar is just compensation and how are you advocating to get victims the best possible compensation?

PS this is a non hypothetical question. 

First, you and your partner have posted 5 times since this question was posted, and of course come up with your own answer. So there really is not reason for me to reply, clearly MY real answer is not of great importance. 

First, my  question of pennies on what Dollar has never been answered there is a far cry between pennies on $22T and $2B.

Second, pennies on the dollar is really a false argument in a bankruptcy for this type of situation. These are not secured creditors that have a specific amount of money owed, these are not even judgement creditors that have won a verdict in a law suit. So any dollars that you are basing pennies offered on $xxx, is an estimate of what might occur of every case could go to trial and won. 

So is whatever dollar amount averaged out over 82K fair? For some? Absolutely not.  For others? Probably more than fair based on what they could get through the legal system. 

In the end the "fair" does not really have any bearing on this. An amount will be proposed. It will pass or fail. If it passes does that make it fair? I can't imagine it will. If it fails, the a few might be able to get fair compensation in the state courts, but many will get nothing. 

 

[mrjohns2]

3 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I really wasn’t looking for a dollar amount answer. I really wanted to know if he thought pennies on the dollar was fair. His non answers are saying that he does. 

The whole point of the bankruptcy was that if each person was granted a fair judgement, the BSA would quickly run out of money for the remainder of those abused. Thus pennies on the dollar is the situation we are in.

[johnsch322]

42 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

First, you and your partner have posted 5 times since this question was posted, and of course come up with your own answer. So there really is not reason for me to reply, clearly MY real answer is not of great importance. 

First, my  question of pennies on what Dollar has never been answered there is a far cry between pennies on $22T and $2B.

Second, pennies on the dollar is really a false argument in a bankruptcy for this type of situation. These are not secured creditors that have a specific amount of money owed, these are not even judgement creditors that have won a verdict in a law suit. So any dollars that you are basing pennies offered on $xxx, is an estimate of what might occur of every case could go to trial and won. 

So is whatever dollar amount averaged out over 82K fair? For some? Absolutely not.  For others? Probably more than fair based on what they could get through the legal system. 

In the end the "fair" does not really have any bearing on this. An amount will be proposed. It will pass or fail. If it passes does that make it fair? I can't imagine it will. If it fails, the a few might be able to get fair compensation in the state courts, but many will get nothing. 

 

First off I have no partner. If you are referring to @CynicalScouterI am sure he would tell you he is as independent of a thinker as I am.  He is free to post whatever he wishes and does so with out my collusion (we have never spoke or sent messages to each other.

I have asked you the questions in various ways hoping to get an honest response from you.  I can tell thru your responses/non responses that you don't really want to give an honest answer to a point blank question .  I asked you based on my my situation what you would consider fair and you haven't answered.  

It is OK that you do not answer but please do not say you "care" or advocate for survivors.

 

[HelpfulTracks]

1 hour ago, HelpfulTracks said:

So is whatever dollar amount averaged out over 82K fair? For some? Absolutely not.  For others? Probably more than fair based on what they could get through the legal system. 

 

4 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

I have asked you the questions in various ways hoping to get an honest response from you.  I can tell thru your responses/non responses that you don't really want to give an honest answer to a point blank question .  I asked you based on my my situation what you would consider fair and you haven't answered.  

It is OK that you do not answer but please do not say you "care" or advocate for survivors.

 

Is that not an answer? Or is it just not an answer you like. 

And if care about the current and future scouts precludes one from caring for victims, then the inverse is true. 

SO I take it you don't care about the current youth at all. Can't have it both ways. 

[johnsch322]

2 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

The whole point of the bankruptcy was that if each person was granted a fair judgement, the BSA would quickly run out of money for the remainder of those abused. Thus pennies on the dollar is the situation we are in.

You are correct BSA could not afford to face what was less than 300 lawsuits and so they elected to enter bankruptcy.  The issue of why it is pennies on the dollar is because of those that are piggy backing to try to escape what might cost them much more money in the future.  The LC's are one those.  If this goes to a BSA National only exit then many LC's will face financial ruin along with the CO's.  Insurance company payouts will be far greater than the 850 million on the table now and if settlements with all the insurance companies were made I doubt it would amount to more than say 2.5 billion when the exposure is at least ten times that amount.  the fair thing would have the LC's put in an amount equal to what a bankruptcy would cost them (say 40% 0f assets), have the CO's make a considerable settlement and leave the insurance company's to answer on their own.  It is the insurance companies participation from the invite by the BSA which makes the current settlement offer to be pennies on the dollar.

[johnsch322]

6 minutes ago, HelpfulTracks said:

 

Is that not an answer? Or is it just not an answer you like. 

And if care about the current and future scouts precludes one from caring for victims, then the inverse is true. 

SO I take it you don't care about the current youth at all. Can't have it both ways. 

Please don't make me laugh so hard. 

You give answers that are basically saying why you can not give a straight answer to a question. 

I do care about current and future youth and have never said that I wish for BSA to go away.

I will say though that if BSA did go away then there will be other organizations to fill in the void and I doubt there will be lives lost or current scouters who become so traumatized that they have to enter psych wards, take neurotransmitters, have failed lives where they can not connect within relationships, issues with authority etc. etc. because of it.  

But please how are you advocating for survivors?

[Eagle94-A1]

Mods, if this is the wrong place for this, please feel free to move it to the appropriate thread.

 

@CynicalScouter, @Eagle1993and everyone else posting updated information and commentary on the bankruptcy:

 

THANK YOU!

I just got back from a meeting where the bankruptcy, selling of camps, and membership was the topic of conversation. Not only was I not surprised by anything that was said because It has been said here, I ended up telling them a few things they did not know, specifically the presser today. It's sad when I get accurate and reliable information faster here than from my own council.

[CynicalScouter]

8 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I just got back from a meeting where the bankruptcy, selling of camps, and membership was the topic of conversation. Not only was I not surprised by anything that was said because It has been said here, I ended up telling them a few things they did not know, specifically the presser today. It's sad when I get accurate and reliable information faster here than from my own council.

The fact is, BSA has a history spanning decades of not telling anyone anything.

And that means the LCs have even less information to then send to volunteers.

Add to this that the BSA and LCs are parties to the case and therefore restricted in terms of what they can and cannot say about the case. Etc.

I still think it mindboggling that BSA is the only not for profit I can think of that does NOT a) have a staff directory  b) have a listing of its board members or c) both on its website. So, you wouldn't even know who to ask if you had questions.

[yknot]

44 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I still think it mindboggling that BSA is the only not for profit I can think of that does NOT a) have a staff directory  b) have a listing of its board members or c) both on its website. So, you wouldn't even know who to ask if you had questions.

It is run more like a cult than a functional nonprofit organization. 

[5thGenTexan]

My Council finally said something about the bankruptcy this week.....

Quote

We have had a long-standing relationship with your organization and have cherished the years we have had together and the many lives we have positively impacted together.  I am proud to say that the BSA is living up to the promises made in our historic annual agreements with Charter Organizations.

The BSA bankruptcy seems to be in the final phases and I wanted to keep you informed of the latest points that we are allowed to share:

1. Circle Ten Council is not and has not filed for bankruptcy. We are a separate non-profit corporation with our own Board of Directors charged with governing the Circle Ten Council operations and ensuring fiscal responsibility.
2. The Circle Ten Council Board of Directors have conditionally agreed to contribute to the fund that has been established to help fairly compensate victims that have been abused in Scouting. The contribution is contingent upon satisfactory protection of our Chartered Organizations by the BSA for claims filed during the bankruptcy process as well as any future claims that occurred prior to February 18, 2020.
3. According to information from the BSA, there has been various insurance coverage in place for local councils, and their Charter Organizations since January 1, 1976.   
4. The BSA’s current plan for exiting bankruptcy will provide Charter Organizations protection from Scouting-related abuse claims from January 1, 1976, to February 18, 2020. 
5. In the State of Texas, the maximum statute of limitation for litigating an abuse claim is for a person born after 1996.  Therefore, the January 1, 1976, protection provides Charter Organizations relief for abuse claims that are 21 years outside the current statute of limitations in Texas.
6. The BSA expects to continue providing insurance protection for all Charter Organizations at current levels.  Current insurance provides $1 million of coverage per occurrence with insurance layers aggregating to $135 million.
7. Current expectations are that the BSA will exit bankruptcy in the 1st quarter of 2022.  For the tens of thousands of youths served by Scouting in Circle Ten Council, please join us in being patient as the bankruptcy process works to that exit.  And know this, the Circle Ten Council will only participate in a resolution of the bankruptcy upon its satisfaction with the protection of your organization and others as Charter Organizations.