Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[johnsch322]

1 hour ago, Sentinel947 said:

Have you studied @CynicalScouters record? He's been largely critical of the BSA and on the side of the CSA victims. His legal analysis is typically accurate. At one point he was Mr. Kosnoffs favorite poster when He was reading our little website. 

Unless you've forgotten, this is a Scouting forum and the BSA in the Chapter 11 process. Most of the Scouters here would like to see the BSA survive and the victims compensated to the extent possible. If you can't stomach that position, perhaps you shouldn't be here in a Scout leaders forum. 

 

I just read and I do not believe that @Muttsywas referring to @CynicalScouter.   I am sure that the majority of those on this forum are well aware of @CynicalScouterpositions and appreciate all of his hard work and his opinions at least I know that I do.

[MattR]

58 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

I just read and I do not believe that @Muttsywas referring to @CynicalScouter.   I am sure that the majority of those on this forum are well aware of @CynicalScouterpositions and appreciate all of his hard work and his opinions at least I know that I do.

Good point. I didn't even look at whatever caused this.

Either way, insulting people in this discussion is not acceptable. At the same time, calling someone a lying liar ... made me laugh (just because of the grammar). However, we'll remove that post. 

In the meantime,  let's get back to discussing ideas and not personalities.

 

[David CO]

3 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Most of the Scouters here would like to see the BSA survive and the victims compensated to the extent possible. If you can't stomach that position, perhaps you shouldn't be here in a Scout leaders forum. 

I can't stomach that position if that position means the old guard, who guided us into this foul abyss, remain in their positions on the national and council boards.  They are the ones who shouldn't be here.  They should be gone.

I can't stand the idea that BSA will lose billions, we will lose our camps, membership will plummet, the remaining kids will pay skyrocketing dues and fees, and yet the silver buffalo crowd will all hang on to their positions of honor and power in BSA.  It makes my blood boil.

 

[johnsch322]

43 minutes ago, David CO said:

I can't stand the idea that BSA will lose billions, we will lose our camps, membership will plummet, the remaining kids will pay skyrocketing dues and fees,

Under the current RSA the BSA will not lose billions in fact between local councils and the National it is less than 1 Billion.  Yes there will be some camps sold but from what I have gathered most of those have been under utilized. As for plummeting membership that has been going on for quite some time and yet I have already read posts where troops are talking about increased membership.  Dues and fees were bound to go up due to inflation and decreased membership.

 

43 minutes ago, David CO said:

I can't stomach that position if that position means the old guard, who guided us into this foul abyss, remain in their positions on the national and council boards. 

This is where you have to make a personal decision of whether to continue to be a member of BSA and try to make a difference or bow out.

Edited September 26, 2021 by johnsch322

[CynicalScouter]

12 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

Dues and fees were bound to go up due to inflation and decreased membership.

The other factor from what I was told is that the LDS was, in effect, subsidizing low fees for years.

[CynicalScouter]

32 minutes ago, skeptic said:

So please do not make comments about me not caring.  

When you go out of your way to insist the victims of sexual abuse deserve nothing unless they can prove PHYSICAL harm? When you go out of your way to insist the victims of sexual abuse deserve nothing because EMOTIONAL harm isn't a real thing, or isn't something you can be compensated for? Sorts makes me wonder if you do care.

[skeptic]

19 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

When you go out of your way to insist the victims of sexual abuse deserve nothing unless they can prove PHYSICAL harm? When you go out of your way to insist the victims of sexual abuse deserve nothing because EMOTIONAL harm isn't a real thing, or isn't something you can be compensated for? Sorts makes me wonder if you do care.

Please show where I ever suggested emotional damage was not real.  You are making things up out of your own emotional cloth, and that is not anything money can cure.  Perhaps it may salve your and your families phystical surroundings, but it will never "fix" the damage.  Only your own personal spiritual healing can even salve it.  As I noted before, most of us have had emotional damage of one type or another, and few are likely to say they completely healed.  I have no answer for that.  But I do feel that the idea take away the overall positive program and its support to somehow get even is not only selfish, but impossible.  But we all have our own emotional and psychological challenges, and I cannot ever understand yours or others that have posted.  It is tiresome though to continue to be made out to completely uncaring or somehow ignorant or stupid (they are different). It is even more galling to watch basically unscrupulous and greedy legal people steal money from their clients in the name of justice, when it is actually simply greed.  Otherwise, they would not take the percentages they do, nor would they legal hypocrits.  JMO of course, as you all know my view of most of them.  Only in this country can they get away with it.   I want to continue to see through the glass dimly, not have it completely opaque.  

I only wish the victims well, but I am not confident that the final outcome will leave them any less embittered or whole.  Now back to watching mostly.  

[fred8033]

5 hours ago, David CO said:

I can't stomach that position if that position means the old guard, who guided us into this foul abyss, remain in their positions on the national and council boards.  They are the ones who shouldn't be here.  They should be gone.

I can't stand the idea that BSA will lose billions, we will lose our camps, membership will plummet, the remaining kids will pay skyrocketing dues and fees, and yet the silver buffalo crowd will all hang on to their positions of honor and power in BSA.  It makes my blood boil.

Those who guided BSA into the situation are mostly dead.  ... Not all, but most.  ...  1960 chief scout and executive board?  1970s?  1980s?  Those from the last twenty years have been trying to find a path out. 

Even those from that era were trying to handle very hard situations.  People want to feel better about themselves by blaming those from the past that are not here to defend themselves.  I'm really, really not sure those commenting now would have done any better back then.  In many cases worse.  

I'm not an apologist for BSA, but come on.  The IVF files are evidence of BSA trying to find a way to block people where society failed.  

[johnsch322]

5 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Please show where I ever suggested emotional damage was not real.  You are making things up out of your own emotional cloth, and that is not anything money can cure.  Perhaps it may salve your and your families phystical surroundings, but it will never "fix" the damage.  Only your own personal spiritual healing can even salve it.  As I noted before, most of us have had emotional damage of one type or another, and few are likely to say they completely healed.  I have no answer for that.  But I do feel that the idea take away the overall positive program and its support to somehow get even is not only selfish, but impossible.  But we all have our own emotional and psychological challenges, and I cannot ever understand yours or others that have posted.  It is tiresome though to continue to be made out to completely uncaring or somehow ignorant or stupid (they are different). It is even more galling to watch basically unscrupulous and greedy legal people steal money from their clients in the name of justice, when it is actually simply greed.  Otherwise, they would not take the percentages they do, nor would they legal hypocrits.  JMO of course, as you all know my view of most of them.  Only in this country can they get away with it.   I want to continue to see through the glass dimly, not have it completely opaque.  

I only wish the victims well, but I am not confident that the final outcome will leave them any less embittered or whole.  Now back to watching mostly.  

Just by always JMO does not legitimize your opinions. As a victim I do not feel you wish me well instead you are basically constantly saying no amount of money will make you whole in a way that suggests why bother getting anything when you won’t be happy anyway. 
You also are always demonizing lawyers so my first question to you would be do you work for free in your primary occupation?  We may not all agree with Tim Kosnoff et al but he does have the right to his opinions whether they are inconsistent or not and the right to be paid for his work. I think you would have more of a legitimate beef against him if he had only just started taking abuse cases when this bankruptcy started. He has been representing the abused for decades. I also feel that my lawyer is not stealing from me and depending where all this ends up him and his law firm might make millions.

As you are not disclosing what type of emotional damage you are suffering from it would be hard to gauge if your issues equates to the issues that I and many other survivors have suffered. 
I also don’t feel like you wish for this bankruptcy process to play itself out so what do you propose instead?

[CynicalScouter]

38 minutes ago, skeptic said:

But I do feel that the idea take away the overall positive program and its support to somehow get even is not only selfish, but impossible.

So your legal argument (this is the bankruptcy thread) is if an organization is a non-for profit and does enough good it’s allowed to get way with anything it wants because it has “an overall positive program”?

I don’t care if BSA found the cure for cancer. The fact that it may do some good does not give it a legal exemption to tort laws regarding negligence and child sexual abuse.

Edited September 26, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

24 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

As a victim I do not feel you wish me well instead you are basically constantly saying no amount of money will make you whole in a way that suggests why bother getting anything when you won’t be happy anyway. 

Exactly the message is clear: Go away don’t ask for compensation don’t seek justice leave the “poor” BSA alone. Emotional damage is so hard to prove or measure let’s just forget about it. Etc.

still waiting for a legal argument as to how or why that flies.

Edited September 26, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[David CO]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

So please do not make comments about me not caring.  

Fair enough.  

 

 

[skeptic]

18 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

So your legal argument (this is the bankruptcy thread) is if an organization is a non-for profit and does enough good it’s allowed to get way with anything it wants because it has “an overall positive program”?

I don’t care if BSA found the cure for cancer. The fact that it may do some good does not give it a legal exemption to tort laws regarding negligence and child sexual abuse.

I am not a lawyer, only a rational human being with opinions based on longevity and personal experience, as well as a broad sampling of reading for decades.  This entire thread if full of impossible expectations.  My personal demons are not the same as yours, and I cannot comprehend yours.  But they are personal, and no amount of manetary solice will make them go away, and I have mostly learned to live with them and keep them at bay.  Your comment though, and "I know my opinion is not important apparently", suggest somehow that other emotional life experiences do not hold the same importance as these in this thread.  That seem a bit odd, and maybe even hypocritical  But since you suggest I have a legal argument, then it is simply that the scale of justice stays in balance.  With that, I will try harder to not torture you with my "opinions".  I still do have a group, two now actually, of young people that we need to mentor.  Again, best wishes, even though you say I do not mean it.  *deleted*

Edited September 27, 2021 by elitts
personal attack attached to end of post.

[johnsch322]

57 minutes ago, skeptic said:

I am not a lawyer, only a rational human being with opinions based on longevity and personal experience

So how do you propose if not thru the course of this bankruptcy that the CSA victims be compensated?  I believe you have been asked this question in several ways and multiple times by many forum members. 

[skeptic]

15 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

 

So how do you propose if not thru the course of this bankruptcy that the CSA victims be compensated?  I believe you have been asked this question in several ways and multiple times by many forum members. 

Again, I have never stated that the proceedings should not play out, only that they do it in a balanced and as close to fair manner as possible.  And that does not mean trying to force money out of questionable sources or ignoring larger effects.  Certainly, IF they finally arrive at a payout, the victims should be paid.  I personally would limit the lawyer payout to no more than 5-10 percent of the totals, period.  So, if you are to get the maximum payout under the current optins, you increase that payout by taking it from the lawyers, not trying to force liquidation of properties never meant to be used for anything but youth activities and such.  A balanced scale and rational aproach.  Not something that plays well in this tragedy.