Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[fred8033]

On 9/15/2021 at 7:54 AM, CynicalScouter said:

The problem is no one has asked for it. In USA Gymnastics the victims demanded the entire board resign, organizational and structural changes, etc.

USA gymnastics is current history.  The victims are still teens / twenties.  Those in charge were dealing with Nassar. 

BSA incidents are mostly historical.  The majority of the victims are now in their 40s/50s/60s and up.  The people in charge of BSA at the time of most of these incidents were our parents OR our grandparents.  BSA has been improving YP / safety for 20+ years.  

So who's left at the top levels that was at the top level 30 years ago (1991) or 40 years ago (1981). 

Are most of those executives even still alive?  

[Eagle1993]

6 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

USA gymnastics is current history.  The victims are still teens / twenties.  Those in charge were dealing with Nassar. 

BSA incidents are mostly historical.  The majority of the victims are now in their 40s/50s/60s and up.  The people in charge of BSA at the time of most of these incidents were our parents OR our grandparents.  BSA has been improving YP / safety for 20+ years.  

So who's left at the top levels that was at the top level 30 years ago (1991) or 40 years ago (1981). 

BSA has 637 CSA claims 2010 and later.  USA Gymnastics has a total of just over 500 claims.

[fred8033]

Just now, Eagle1993 said:

BSA has 637 CSA claims 2010 and later.  USA Gymnastics has a total of just over 500 claims.

 

USA Gynmastics hid / protected / ignored Nassar.  Are you saying BSA hid / protected / ignored abusers since 2010?  Are you saying BSA had a single abuser that victimized 500 people?  

I'm not willing to go there.  Was mandatory reporting done?  Was YPT followed?  Did BSA shield the abusers?  Was the same single abuser allowed to victimize 500 claims? 

As much as people want to hate BSA, they've done a lot for YPT in the last 20 years.  A huge amount.  This seems like a very different situation than USA Gymnastics.

[Eagle1993]

2 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

USA Gynmastics hid / protected / ignored Nassar.  Are you saying BSA hid / protected / ignored abusers since 2010?  Are you saying BSA had a single abuser that victimized 500 people?  

I'm not willing to go there.  Was mandatory reporting done?  Was YPT followed?  Did BSA shield the abusers?  Was the same single abuser allowed to victimize 500 claims? 

As much as people want to hate BSA, they've done a lot for YPT in the last 20 years.  A huge amount.  This seems like a very different situation than USA Gymnastics.

If 637 kids drowned since 2010 in BSA I would think you would say we need to relook at our water safety program ....  637 is far too many CSA claimants.  I agree we have improved.  I don't agree we are doing everything we can.

[fred8033]

10 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

If 637 kids drowned since 2010 in BSA I would think you would say we need to relook at our water safety program ....  637 is far too many CSA claimants.  I agree we have improved.  I don't agree we are doing everything we can.

We can always do more.  Always.  ... BUT, it's not automatically negligent or liable or even bad if we are not doing everything we can.  ... What is reasonable?  YPT and the current structure seems like a good standard / expectation.  

Perhaps this is a different thread, but what is better?  What is the next YPT improvement?  I fear the next improvement and the next and the next will eventually destroy scouting and it's better to not have the organized youth program.  The same reasoning can go for many youth organizations.  

 

Edited September 16, 2021 by fred8033

[Eagledad]

18 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

If 637 kids drowned since 2010 in BSA I would think you would say we need to relook at our water safety program ....  637 is far too many CSA claimants.  I agree we have improved.  I don't agree we are doing everything we can.

I'm curious, Do we know the 637 is sexual? Do we know if they are physical? I ask because the abuse situation I know of that was physical was not sexual. And the sexual abuse situation was not physical. The sexual report came from an adult who was standing outside of a scout tent listening the scouts having a sexual discussion about girls.. 

Barry

[Eagle1993]

31 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

We can always do more.  Always.  ... BUT, it's not automatically negligent or liable or even bad if we are not doing everything we can.  ... What is reasonable?  YPT and the current structure seems like a good standard / expectation.  

Perhaps this is a different thread, but what is better?  What is the next YPT improvement?  I fear the next improvement and the next and the next will eventually destroy scouting and it's better to not have the organized youth program.  The same reasoning can go for many youth organizations.  

Probably a different thread. 

 

[Eagle1993]

14 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said:

Based on a review of June 2021 balance sheet data, total Local Council net assets have increased by approximately $80 million to $3,382,300,795. In other words, Local Councils certainly appear to be in an even better position in June 2021 than they were in February 2021.

BSA councils reported $1.651B in Long term investments Feb 28,2021.  Using the S&P 500 as a baseline ... this was likely $1.41M in February 2020 when BSA filed bankruptcy.  Then, looking at today, those investments ... again using S&P 500 as a baseline are likely $1.89B.

So, since BSA filed bankruptcy, it is very possible Local Councils' long term investments increased by $480M.  They are currently contributing $500M + $100M loan they are taking out.  Their entire contribution is almost covered by the increase in long term investments since they filed bankruptcy.

Now ... these are very rough estimates and it would be interesting if someone had the details from back in February 2020.  In addition, some councils are getting hit much more than others and each council has their own investments. My summer camp was sold to cover this ... so I know the pain is real for some councils. 

That said, I am not surprised the TCC believes LCs (overall) can afford more and there have been reports of some LCs being able to cover it through sales of investments vs touching current FOS contributions or properties.  

[Eagledad]

25 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

I would like to know, too. This a good point and has to factored into the equation, to be fair. I’ve appreciated the ‘correction’ about the IVF not being singularly based on sexual abuse or impropriety. Though it may seem otherwise, I don’t want to be blathering without foundation or credibility. These data points helped me balance my perspective, though in no way takes the wind out of my sails. 

I was not expecting this answer.

I assumed wrongly that the abuses (reports?) were categorized. I know of a hand full of sexual abuses that occurred in the council while I was leader, and none them were physically sexual in nature. There could have been some, but, the few I knew of not only were not physical, the complaint was at scouts. Not adults. Just seems the numbers shouldn't be used in these discussions. Could the number just 10 percent of the published discussed numbers the circumstances are whittled down to specifics? Who knows. We know scouts were physically abused, but seems we have no idea how many. 

Barry

[ThenNow]

2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

there have been reports of some LCs being able to cover it through sales of investments vs touching current FOS contributions or properties.  

I know this as a “true fact,” as a dopey friend of mine loved to say. Heard it with my own two hears and read the lips uttering the words ta boot.

[ThenNow]

3 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I was not expecting this answer.

From me, you mean? My forum sabbatical has mellowed me. See? We could share a tinfoil dinner and swap patches after all. 

[ThenNow]

This NY Post piece is a dilly.

https://nypost.com/2021/09/14/boy-scout-sex-abuse-victim-settlements-near-2-billion/

 

[yknot]

40 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Lovely. And so the dark cloud of suspicion and disdain circles the pool of claimants like a pack of Harris’s Hawks. (Look it up. They hunt in cooperative groups and can take down larger prey. They go so far as to stand on the back of another in a stack to maximize spotting range. Fascinating raptors. I’ve enjoyed being with them in Falconry. Parabuteo unicinctus.)

Let's not drag the innocent Harris Hawk into this sordid tale. They are lovely creatures, which is why they are so suitable for falconry. They are less likely to talon your face. 

[ThenNow]

18 minutes ago, yknot said:

Let's not drag the innocent Harris Hawk into this sordid tale. They are lovely creatures, which is why they are so suitable for falconry. They are less likely to talon your face. 

I said “like.” Apt and applicable comparison. No aspersions or negative inference. I was, after all, likening them to nothing more than a dark cloud. Ever seen a kettle of raptors? Agreed. I love them. Aerial acrobatics, ta boot. Might be my favorite to work. (You may just be poking at me, eh?)

Edited September 17, 2021 by ThenNow

[RememberSchiff]

On 9/16/2021 at 10:46 AM, johnsch322 said:

From Congressional testimony concerning USA Gymnastics,

"From the very beginning when I was reporting my abuse to Steve Penny … from the very beginning, Steve Penny kept telling my mom and I that the most important thing was to keep things confidential. The most important thing was to give McKayla Maroney breathing room. He was trying to make sure we weren’t talking about it. It seemed like his biggest concern all along was this wasn’t going to get out. It was never ‘How are you feeling, what can we do to help you?’" Raisman said.

Doesn't this also sound like the Boy Scouts?  

In part,  but my understanding a higher percentage of US Gymnast victims directly reported to law enforcement to no avail.

The BSA failed scouts, but Olympian Simone Biles stated in a recent Congressional hearing, "an entire system that allowed his abuse" -  USA Gymnastics,  the U.S. Olympic and Paralympic Committee, and the FBI.

...

Advocates for the women say as many as 120 athletes may have been abused by Nassar after the FBI first heard of the charges against him.

The Justice Department has not brought charges against either of the former FBI agents most closely involved in the case. The FBI fired Special Agent Michael Langeman in the last two weeks, FBI Director Christopher Wray later told the panel. Langeman's supervisor, Jay Abbott, previously resigned...

I have previously stated, many times in more blunt, unscoutlike language, that all the BSA had to do was turnover all information (files) to law enforcement and let them investigate. Maybe, I was wrong.

https://www.npr.org/2021/09/15/1036968966/gymnasts-nassar-fbi-senate-hearing-simone-biles-aly-raisman-wray