Bankruptcy, everything but the legalese

[yknot]

6 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Argh ... I fear inserting myself.  

The problem with "walk the walk" or follow the "scout oath and law" is that two well meaning individuals doing their best can reach different conclusions ... make different decisions ... judge things differently.  Each person has their own unique set of experiences, perspectives and thoughts.  Each person enters into situations with different capabilities and may have different options than the next guy.  It's just not that simple.  

Also, I've known too many scouters at all levels of scouting.  I can't say I've liked every one or agreed always.  BUT, generally I've never seen a better motivated and well meaning set of individuals.  The worst I can say is that there are many that use scouting as a place to fill voids in their own lives.  BUT, that's not necessarily a bad thing.  

I know others have run into individuals that have done wrong and committed crimes.  From what I've seen and experienced, that's far and few.  

.My point is ... scouting is filled with many well meaning people ... paid and volunteer.  None are perfect.  Each has their vices.  BUT, overall there are so many well motivated individuals that I can't say BSA's problems are due to not following oath and law or not walking the walk.

... except the guy who bought discount cloth for the centenial uniform pants.  That guy didn't follow oath and law.   ... OH ... And the iron on BSA / United States letters.  That guy should have walked the walk. 

 

It does mean different things to different people but I think in this sense of managing a large institution it means being honest, truthful, trustworthy, etc.   

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, yknot said:

but I think in this sense of managing a large institution it means being honest, truthful, trustworthy, etc.   

And there are people who think Mosby is being honest, truthful and trustworthy. Just because YOU don't think so doesn't mean others do not.

That's the problem with using this as performance. The "M" in "Measurement" becomes "My opinion".

How are you going to measure performance? Run a poll of scouts and if he gets less than 50% fire him?

Edited September 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[yknot]

18 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

And there are people who think Mosby is being honest, truthful and trustworthy. Just because YOU don't think so doesn't mean others do not.

That's the problem with using this as performance. The "M" in "Measurement" becomes "My opinion".

How are you going to measure performance? Run a poll of scouts and if he gets less than 50% fire him?

I'm not speaking directly jjust about Mosby here, but about BSA leadership in general. I don't think I need to enumerate the many instances over the decades that BSA has operated in a less than scoutlike or honest manner. You yourself have repeatedly pointed out that CSA cases have been successful in court because attorneys have been able to prove negligence on BSA's part. That's what I'm talking about. 

Edited September 2, 2021 by yknot

[CynicalScouter]

Latest from United Methodist Scouting FB. This is an official page. It does NOT sound positive.
https://www.facebook.com/101372411268595/posts/605743410831490/?d=n

“Have you ever thought about what James West felt? How did he see things? He was asked to be the Chief Scout for a brand new BSA. There were already active troops with charters going back to England. There were troops doing their own thing. And there was something he believed could be of benefit for the country and world. 

The movement was already moving. So how to build the future today? That had to be his daily question. 

Know two things:

1) We are working tirelessly to help the charter groups of today hang tight to service with youth. This is a challenge. 

2) We also are exploring all options to go where the movement that values youth, service, community, and growth will grow again.”

[Gilwell_1919]

5 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

It isn't a moral equivalency. It is a compensation equivalency. I never said it was "good" or "bad". I never said "fair" or "unfair". I never used any moral judgment on it whatsoever.

I said it was comparable. Period.

Negative, kind sir. You keep peppering your statements with "hyperbole". (e.g., "what, should they work for free?", or "so, should they only make $1?", et cetera). You can't keep mixing sensationalist language into your analytical comments and not have me call it out as moral equivalency. 

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

moral equivalency. 

I made no moral judgements. You are reading things into the text that are not there.

[MattR]

I have 2 simple goals that could be made smart.

1) Ask a random sample of parents whether they want their children in scouts. Answer on a scale of 1 to 5. 1 is absolutely and 5 is not on your life. Measure the percentage of 1s and set a goal for that. The point is raise awareness of scouting. i.e., get some marketing that works.

2) For those that said absolutely, make them successful volunteers. measure how many are volunteering 3 years later in a gold status unit. i.e., make sure they understand the program, are well trained and helping out. 

So, I'm not interested in membership numbers. Rather, more visibility and quality units.

That all said, the issue i originally brought up was not CSE pay but how much money councils burn through and how much of that is making it to the scouts. I suppose one could set similar goals for councils.  How many parents want their kids in the local units and how successful are new parent volunteers?

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, MattR said:

1) Ask a random sample of parents whether they want their children in scouts. Answer on a scale of 1 to 5. 1 is absolutely and 5 is not on your life. Measure the percentage of 1s and set a goal for that. The point is raise awareness of scouting. i.e., get some marketing that works.

During the annual meeting there was talk about a major media and marketing push once the bankruptcy is over to "rebrand" BSA and to focus on people who have NOT heard of or are aware of scouting (vs. trying to drum up support from those who already knew). There was supposedly messages that were tested, meaning either a) focus groups or b) survey such as you suggest.

We'll see what comes of it.

[CynicalScouter]

Also worth noting: the folks working the official United Methodists Scouting FB are asking people to hold tight "We will have an honest update by Sept. 20."

https://www.facebook.com/MethodistScouting/posts/603906087681889?comment_id=604431790962652&reply_comment_id=604441290961702

What is so special about Sept. 20? It is the day before the hearing on the BSA disclosure statement and Plan 4.0 set to start on Sept. 21.

And I feel for this scouter (emphasis added)

Quote

We genuinely appreciate the work you are doing, but the last update on July 20 said that everyone "needed time" to work this out. Now it is 5 weeks later, and you say that you will have an update on September 20 (3 more weeks). I truly want to believe that, but I am wondering if that will be the case. The longer this is drawn out, the more units will end up leaving the church just due to not being sure what is happening and needing a stable home on January 1. I hope for a positive outcome for everyone involved, but the units are going to have to make decisions soon.

 

14 minutes ago, MattR said:

quality units.

That gets into another debate of what is a "quality unit" and how can you measure of a unit is/isn't or to what extent is/isn't it a "quality" unit.

JTE scores anyone?

[Gilwell_1919]

3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I made no moral judgements. You are reading things into the text that are not there.

I am simply applying discourse analysis. Generally speaking, language is processed through the respective left (logical) and right (emotional) hemispheres of our brains. Psychologically speaking, the left hemispheres of our brains are more verbal, analytical, and orderly with greater propensity towards logic, sequencing, linear thinking, mathematics, facts, and thinking in words. Whereas the right hemispheres of our brains are more visual and intuitive with greater propensity towards imagination, holistic thinking, intuition, arts, rhythm, nonverbal cues, feelings, visualization, and daydreaming. However, neurologically speaking, synaptic processes are not completely lateralized to just one hemisphere over another; meaning, from a physical sense, our bodies use both hemispheres of the brain equally when processing the world around us.

However, and there is always a "however".... if you are trying to make a point by using logical data to enforce your emotional argument, I would certainly argue that is moral equivocating by way of circular reasoning. 

[PeterHopkins]

A few random thoughts...

I wonder how the salary paid to James E. West, adjusted for inflation, compares to the salaries paid to recent CSEs. I don't have the data.

I read at one time that the average National League player earned roughly seven times the average American worker in 1876, and the averahe Major League playe earned roughly seven times the average American worker in 1976. When free agency came into being, the multiple imediatel shot to 70 times the average American worker. Who knows what it is now. The point is that many things in our society have changed drastically since the time of James E. West.

In the Scout Oath, we promise to do our best to obey the Scout Law. None of us are perfect. We just keep trying. We cannot judge anyone who has departed from the Scout Law. Only they know whether they did their best.

I don't like Kosnoff, because I don't think he needs to draw so much attention to himself in order to represent his clients to the best of his ability. I will give him credit for following the second point of the Scout Law with respect to his clients. However, the Bankruptcy Court and mediation rooms are the appropriate forums for him to get the best settlement possible for his clients, not Twitter, particularly given what the judge has already said about chapter 7. I think those tweets carry the potential to hurt not only the BSA's ability to recruit and retain members but also the ability of some post-BSA Scouting organization to attract members.

In the months following Roger Mosby becoming the BSA's CEO, he was photographed several times with his Silver Antelope knot sewn onto his uniform upside down. I just had to get that off my chest. In recent photos, this has been corrected.

I think that Mosby's primary role is steering the BSA out of bankruptcy and leaving it in a position to survive and rebuild. Many, including some presently dedicated to and active in the Movement, may not want that or think it is the best outcome. But it seems obvious to me that this is why they would hire someone form the business community for that job.

So, Mosby's goal can be described as

• S Guide the BSA through its bankruptcy and see it emerge in a position to rebuild
• M The BSA's emergence from bankruptcy alone will not indicate the goal has been accomplished. The local councils must also get immunity. Scouting cannot truly rebuild with local councils going through their own bankruptcies.
• A This was certainly attainable, when Mosby was hired. The hill looks steeper right now.
• R There is literally no other reason Mosby was hired, and failure to meet this goal will strangle the BSA's ability to fulfill its mission.
• T Given the number of units on calendar-year charters, it may be that this needs to happen before rechartering paperwork is due.

I think the BSA may scrap the chartered organization model altogether and have the local councils charter units. It works well for the GSUSA. If chartered organizations are held financially responsible for significant compensation to victims, it is hard to imagine continuing the system will be a realistic option.

 

[Gilwell_1919]

3 minutes ago, PeterHopkins said:

...the Bankruptcy Court and mediation rooms are the appropriate forums for him to get the best settlement possible for his clients, not Twitter, particularly given what the judge has already said about chapter 7. I think those tweets carry the potential to hurt not only the BSA's ability to recruit and retain members but also the ability of some post-BSA Scouting organization to attract members.

 

That was precisely the point I was trying get across the bow. 

[johnsch322]

2 hours ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Holy moral equivalency Batman! 🙃

Did those other organizations amass a fortune by pulling on people's heartstrings by saying, "look how your money is helping these sweet little kids"... while simultaneously covering up the carnage of predators that were preying on those same little kids?

And since you keep harping on "should they only make $1" ... fine, I'll take the bait... here is what would get me signing a different tune. If the "current" BSA folks wanted to win me over with their "new and approved sainthood"... I would say the CEO should be compensated at about $350K per year, plus have a "modest budget" for expenditures on things relative to his functional position. That would show me he is in it for "the kids". At cool $1M, nope... that is ludicrous considering we have scouting families that barely get by and still what little they have left over to make scouting happen in their communities. Honestly, I would feel ashamed to have that kind of salary knowing what my organization did, in addition to the fact that it is currently going through bankruptcy, and that I should be doing everything I could to win back public support. Getting paid $1M doesn't exactly say, "sorry for a century of carnage... we promise to do a better job if you let us continue..."

While it is less than the other CEOs in the other organizations you keep propounding for your moral equivalency argument, it sure ain't a minimum wage salary. 

To be fair to the current CEO he was brought in after the sh_t hit the fan.  1 Million may not have been enough to have me take the job. Well on second thought $1,000,001 works for me).

[johnsch322]

27 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

That was precisely the point I was trying get across the bow. 

I don't believe he was invited into mediation.  His representation in the current RSA would be in front of the trustee for his clients.  He has begged to be deposed by the insurers.

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by johnsch322

[Gilwell_1919]

4 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

So @David CO so far all you've done, and done for every one one of my posts, is downvote. Rather than engaging, rather than disagreeing, rather than refuting the data I provided in the latest post for example, all you do is downvote.

Do you have ANYTHING of substance to add other than a downvote? What, precisely do you disagree with in terms of that data I provided? You never answered.

What should the salary/salaries of BSA officials be? You never answered.

Past a certain point this becomes little more than petty unscoutlike behavior.

If all you have to say is a quick little downvote, then that speaks more about your capacity than mine.

@CynicalScouter I'm really not trying to nitpick here... but, during ILST sessions, I try to help scouts understand the anthropological and internal biochemical aspects of "leadership" because I think it is important for them to know how chemicals produce the emotions that make us do and say things in our own self-interests. This is an excerpt from one of the leadership training guides I wrote for my ASMs:

Quote

There is a subconscious evolutionary mechanism that make us aware to the danger all around us, and therefore we have adapted to survive by working together so we feel safe. We organize and cooperate “to ward off the danger around us”. Now, external dangers are constants and there is not much we can do to control them, but internal dangers (to a group) are variables that are controllable by leaders. If you know the chemical composition of what causes you, or others around you, to act a certain way, you will know how to be a more effective leader.

I am bringing this up because Dopamine produces the feeling when you've found something or achieved something. It affects your emotions, movements and your sensations of pleasure and pain, and it is highly addictive, dangerous, and destructive when not it's not balanced. (i.e., video games, updates/likes on social media, emoji reactions, "up-votes on a scouter forum", et cetera).

Just asking here, because you seem to be pretty astute from a logical perspective, but instead of outright attacking @David CO for "down-voting", which is clearly overproducing Cortisol in your system... maybe try to be empathetic and find out the reason why? I have been reading a lot on this entire forum... people make good points... people make bad points... and I am starting to recognize patterns in up-votes, down-votes, et cetera... as it pertains to specific individuals. Interacting in a virtual world, such as this is, I think we not only have to look at the aggregate of how a person responds verbally... but also to their non-verbals as well - in this case, how they vote/react to what a person has posted. 

I was pointed to join this forum by one of my mentors that has been in scouting for 65+ years. It saddens me when I see fellow scouters attacking one another like this (a scout is Kind, right?). I get that you are enjoying the anonymity behind your forum handle "Cynical" Scouter... but instead of pouncing on folks... maybe try to be a "gentle leader". Some of us are looking for genuine feedback and mentoring... not terse cynicism my friend.  Something to think about. While feedback is a gift... some people don't necessarily enjoy receiving gifts. If that is the case... I'll zip it and go back to my coloring books for now. Just trying to be "Helpful" here.