18 Year Old Adult - YPT

[David CO]

3 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

If schools attempted to apply such a rule it would grind the system to a halt.

No school would apply or enforce the rule.  BSA would have to take action themselves.

[Eagle1993]

3 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

our first point, my understanding is that YPT doesn't apply between family members, but I can't cite anything in the GTSS that would support that. 

I thought so as well, but couldn't find any acceptations for family.

At this point, it looks like he will not register.  I talked with a few in our Troop and technically, if he keeps his participation to less than 72 hours he is fine.  

18 year old Eagle Scout ... sorry buddy, take a hike as the BSA doesn't need you.  What is crazy is that 18 year olds don't even count as adult leaders for 2 deep leadership... so 18, 19 & 20 year olds are pretty much considered nothing but a liability to the BSA (outside the hundred left in Venturing).

 

To me, BSA should allow high school seniors to finish as youth in the program (as long as they are under 19).  That would solve a ton of issues that I am starting to see (including having to Eagle before senior year).

[Eagle1993]

I’ll also add that my case is common.  Most 18 year olds likely have friends in scouts.  Many 18 year olds likely go  to school with scouts.  My guess is many if not most 18 year old “adult leaders violate YPT outside scouting activities.  I think it is a good area to clarify to help keep them in BSA without having to look the other way on aspects of YPT. 

[Sentinel947]

40 minutes ago, David CO said:

No school would apply or enforce the rule.  BSA would have to take action themselves.

I meant if the school was to have it's own rules that were similar to the BSA's. If I was a teacher, for instance, I would not want to have 1 on 1 contact with a student, nor would I have any need of it. Applying such a 1 on 1 rule to 18 and 17 year old students would grind the school to halt. 

35 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I thought so as well, but couldn't find any acceptations for family.

At this point, it looks like he will not register.  I talked with a few in our Troop and technically, if he keeps his participation to less than 72 hours he is fine.  

18 year old Eagle Scout ... sorry buddy, take a hike as the BSA doesn't need you.  What is crazy is that 18 year olds don't even count as adult leaders for 2 deep leadership... so 18, 19 & 20 year olds are pretty much considered nothing but a liability to the BSA (outside the hundred left in Venturing).

 

To me, BSA should allow high school seniors to finish as youth in the program (as long as they are under 19).  That would solve a ton of issues that I am starting to see (including having to Eagle before senior year).

When I was an 18 year old ASM, I counted for 2 deep. I will also admit,  I didn't stop spending time with my friends outside of BSA events. Mostly me and my friends who were 16-17 hung out in group settings anyways, not that I was worried about applying that YPT rule to them. I did apply YPT rules to any other Scouts, which was challenging given the number of youth that had my cell phone number and were connected on Facebook from when I was under 18. If I had my own son in a similar situation, I'm not sure I'd recommend him to take the same path I did. As I've grown older, my fondness for following rules, and my awareness of the consequences of not following them has increased.

I'm disappointed that the BSA has made folks like your son choose: follow the rules and skip some of the best parts of being a senior in high school, or don't be an ASM. Hopefully when your son's friends age out, he (and they) consider registering and being actively involved. If your son is going to be at BSA events, he really still ought to take YPT training, and as you know, those rules about adults on outing still apply. 

Allow me to digress a moment, accuse me of being overly sappy if you wish; being an ASM at 18 was one of the best decisions I've made in my life. I gained some excellent mentors I still rely on today. I had the privilege to serve as a mentor for dozens of youth, many of which I still stay in touch with and see regularly now they are adults. In a weird twist, I was the expert resource on Scouting and the Patrol method for a new crop of adult volunteers in my unit. That experience of training, management and recruiting led me into my career field of HR. Now at work, I'm frequently working with managers that are twice my age, and while I have to teach them and sometimes enforce policies, being a young ASM taught me the right way to train/correct folks older and more experienced than me in a humble and gracious way.  Troop volunteering also transitioned into District and Council volunteering where I've taken on new challenges, met new friends and mentors, and interacted with more amazing Scouts. 

Rather than sink into the college life of endless partying or playing video games all day, I was out volunteering and hopefully making a small difference in people's lives. My time as as an ASM in college did more to prepare me for post college life than my college degree did. 

This topic always makes me conflicted, because as said already, the rule is well intentioned, but the application of it in this instance is a train wreck. 

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Sentinel947

[Jameson76]

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

The rule pertaining to no one on one contact between scouts and adults is a youth protection standard.

YPT is not a “game”.

And adult scout leaders keeping secrets is exactly how we got into 82,500 sexual abuse claims

Never said YPT was a game, it is not.  The comment Or you can just not play the game is related to the obviously overreach in the YPT requirements.   I was pointing out the position the YPT rules (note - not a game) puts leaders wanting to be compliant,  The rule "outside of scouting" is vague at best and a CYA by BSA at worst.  No other youth group, sports team, etc has compliance rules (likely short of arrests) that cover the same thing.

Nor is there a legitimate way to actually enforce said rule.  Great point on the 18 YO texting his 17 YO best friend about something.  Clear violation.  

Edited August 31, 2021 by Jameson76

[Jameson76]

55 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

The encounter could create a time paradox, the result of which could cause a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of the space-time continuum and destroy the entire universe! Granted, that's worst-case scenario. The destruction might in fact be very localized, limited to merely our own galaxy.

I would posit it would be a logic paradox rather than a time paradox.  It would be localized at first, then as more logic is questioned; the Zero tolerance rules at Schools, mattress tags that can't be removed, and 5 screens of signing up with websites just to buy something; that paradox would grow, sucking in the local area.

As it grew, sort of like a hurricane, it would become a logicnado, absorbing all light and matter into the event horizon.  Only by solid reasoning and calm deliberation could be logicnado be defeated.  As we are painfully short on both, our destiny would be sealed, only the billionaires with their personal spaceships would survive, for about an extra 15 minutes.

[David CO]

2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

There is literally no reason that literally any of us on this forum would have a reason to be alone with a Scout that is not our child, in person, or virtually, Scouting event or not. 

Sorry.  I have to disagree with you here.  Many people work in jobs/professions that involve contact with children.  You can't expect people to forgo employment in order to comply with YPT.

Should I have quit my teaching job because we did not have 2-deep leadership in my classroom?  That kind of scrutiny to BSA rules would be ridiculous.  

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by David CO

[Gilwell_1919]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

This sounds very familiar.  Many years ago, there was a member of the forum who spoke very much like you. He was constantly telling people they didn't belong in scouting.  So you should know that this is not a new argument.  It has popped up on the forum every few years since I joined.  When was that?  I can't remember anymore.  I do remember that this was the statement that prompted me to write my first post.  (Sighing nostalgically)

 

Far be it from me to say who should be in scouts and who should not be in scouts...

Consider this...

One of my sons participates in trap (shotgun shooting)... they have rules. One parent didn't like one of the safety rules regarding where they could and could not stand during a trap shoot. The coaches and officials were unbending with the particular safety rule, which they themselves agreed was "overkill", because it was a national association rule that had to be followed regardless of how anyone felt. In this particular scenario, all the coach could tell the irritate parent was, "I don't make the rules, and I agree it's a stupid rule, but I have to follow it because people way higher than me tell me I have to... if you don't like it, you can choose not to allow your son to participate in the program." The coach wasn't terse or obtuse... he was simply following the safety rules laid out by the national trap association.

I learned a long time ago that "there is no magic scouting dust that makes stuff happen", we, the adult volunteers, have to often make things happen behind the scenes to ensure the youth have the best program possible. I didn't like certain aspects of how the local district did things at camporees, so I volunteered to help promote my ideas instead of Monday-morning quarterbacking what other volunteers were doing. After a short time, I realized some of it had to do with how the LC did things... so I volunteered to help them as well.  My point is, sometimes we have to be the change we want to see. If we know, at the ground level, YPT needs some adjustment (*especially for scenarios like the one you've propounded for discussion)... why not work with the area commissioners to develop as solution and put it forward to national? I'm not saying it would be successful, but at least you would be actively working towards making the program better (for all scouts and scouters). 

My intent was not to attack or impugn what you were saying... I was simply trying to offer you a different perspective. Sorry if you took it otherwise. 

[Gilwell_1919]

10 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I thought so as well, but couldn't find any acceptations for family.

At this point, it looks like he will not register.  I talked with a few in our Troop and technically, if he keeps his participation to less than 72 hours he is fine.  

18 year old Eagle Scout ... sorry buddy, take a hike as the BSA doesn't need you.  What is crazy is that 18 year olds don't even count as adult leaders for 2 deep leadership... so 18, 19 & 20 year olds are pretty much considered nothing but a liability to the BSA (outside the hundred left in Venturing).

 

To me, BSA should allow high school seniors to finish as youth in the program (as long as they are under 19).  That would solve a ton of issues that I am starting to see (including having to Eagle before senior year).

The reference is in the online version of the training wherein they state it is okay if a parent or sibling stay in the same tent (or even spouses can be in the same tent). 

As for the latter about 18-20 year olds... that is why I have been trying to revive the "rover program", which is specifically designed for young adults that need to learn how to be adult leaders. Every other country has them... but for some reason it never really caught on within BSA. I surmise because they felt venturing was enough?

[Gilwell_1919]

10 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Rather than sink into the college life of endless partying or playing video games all day, I was out volunteering and hopefully making a small difference in people's lives. My time as as an ASM in college did more to prepare me for post college life than my college degree did. 

Hear, hear! Good for you!

[Eagle1993]

13 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

sibling stay in the same tent (

Siblings have the exact same rules as other scouts for tenting per YPT.   That is why I am wondering, per YPT, can an 18 year old adult leader be with their younger scout sibling without violating BSA policies.  The way they are written today, it looks like they cannot be one on one. 
 

I know the sibling scenario is ridiculous but it goes to two points.

1) BSA requiring you to follow YPT outside scouting events.  While they can recommend and should make clear that you cannot simply call something a non scouting event to get around YPT, they should not include non scouting events under their rules.  I expect this is violated all the time. (For example, I know a lot of scouts have sleepovers at a kids house who is an adult leader.   99% of the time not parents are not registered adult leaders therefore violating 2 deep.)

2) We need a better way to handle 18 year olds … and likely 19 & 20 year olds.  Venturing doesn’t help as they follow the same YPT today.  I also agree that having a 18 year old (or even 17 year old) one on one with a  11 or 12 year old could be a risk.  Today’s rules make it nearly impossible to have a 18 year old ASM unless you ignore aspects of YPT outside scouting or they have no friends in scouts. 

[MikeS72]

10 hours ago, David CO said:

Sorry.  I have to disagree with you here.  Many people work in jobs/professions that involve contact with children.  You can't expect people to forgo employment in order to comply with YPT.

Should I have quit my teaching job because we did not have 2-deep leadership in my classroom?  That kind of scrutiny to BSA rules would be ridiculous.  

 

Directly from the Barriers to Abuse FAQ:

There are careers that may require one-on-one contact with youth, however aside from those roles, volunteers must abide by the youth protection policies of the BSA even outside of Scouting activities.

Edited August 31, 2021 by RememberSchiff
added link Barriers to Abuse FAQ

[Sentinel947]

9 hours ago, David CO said:

Sorry.  I have to disagree with you here.  Many people work in jobs/professions that involve contact with children.  You can't expect people to forgo employment in order to comply with YPT.

Should I have quit my teaching job because we did not have 2-deep leadership in my classroom?  That kind of scrutiny to BSA rules would be ridiculous.  

 

Not two deep. 1 on 1. You likely aren't spending significant time alone with an individual student. They're almost always in groups. 

There does end up being some very minimal time where a student and teacher may be alone during a class change because a student is first in, or last out. Normally the hallway is filled with activity, so it's not really 1 on 1. 

Where there becomes some significant risk is before or after school. That can be easily solved by teachers grouping up in a shared classroom before or after school to meet individual students that need extra instruction. 

Not saying schools have to make that kind of application of 1 on 1 contact, but if I was a teacher, that's definitely how I'd cover myself. Not to comply with the BSA, but to remove any risk to me or a student. 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Sentinel947

[Eagle94-A1]

The reason why my 17 year old Eagle, soon to be 18 years old, is not staying on either as an ASM, a Unit College Scouter Reserve, or Merit Badge Counselor is because of the YP policy that expands no 1 on 1 contact outside of Scouting. He has friends and family under 18 involved in Scouting. Under YP rules not only would he have to cease and desist contact with them, but also  he would not be able to share a room with his younger brother when he is home from college on the weekends.

His best friend is 17 and in high school still. As soon as he turns 18, he too will quit Scouting because of current YP rules being expanded outside of Scouting. If he was to remain in Scouting, he would not be allowed to call classmates, most of whom are in Scouting, to have online study sessions, do group projects, call folks for help, etc.

And yes there are some jobs that do require folks to be one-on-one, and not have 2 adults present. @David COmentioned teachers. I can add health care providers. Do we really need to call National and report all the doctors, physician assistants, nurse practitioners, nurses, physical therapists, etc who have had one-on-one contact with Scouts when the Scouts were their patients?

And don't say I do not take  YP policy seriously. You can read about some of the things I have had to deal with on this matter in other posts.

 

Edited August 31, 2021 by Eagle94-A1

[RememberSchiff]

1 hour ago, MikeS72 said:

Directly from the Barriers to Abuse FAQ:

There are careers that may require one-on-one contact with youth, however aside from those roles, volunteers must abide by the youth protection policies of the BSA even outside of Scouting activities.

To repeat @MikeS72 post and  https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/yp-faqs/