18 Year Old Adult - YPT

[Gilwell_1919]

10 minutes ago, David CO said:

No, it is not even close.  In making these over-reaching rules, BSA is the one who is not following the social contract.  BSA is the bad guy here.  Not the parents and scouts.

I'm not trying to blame anyone or label anyone as the "bad guy". I am simply trying to tell you how I explain this to adult leaders or scouts that don't understand. Also... you have the choice to be in scouts. And yes, the social contract that binds together a society is absolutely apropos here. You are born with inalienable rights as a human being, but you have to make small concessions with your absolute rights if you are going to live in a civil society. This is precisely what Locke, Hobbes, and Payne talked about. It is similar in the sense that if you choose to be in scouts, then you have to give up a little bit of your freedom and follow the rules that have been laid out... whether we agree with them or not is really moot. This is why I suggested involving the commissioner corps to hold a "common sense to scouting" forum wherein issues like this could be addressed... and then pushed up to national for review. I'm not saying you are wrong to feel the way you feel, but until we provide national with a solution for scenarios such as this... we have to follow the rules in their most current form ... or remove ourselves from the equation and not participate.

[Jameson76]

Or you can just not play the game and sort of don't ask don't tell.  BSA National did that for years with girls in units, good for the goose, good for the gander

It's an option

The whole outside of Scouting is an interesting over reach and while it has good intentions, that is what the road to Hell is paved with

 

[David CO]

27 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

we have to follow the rules in their most current form ... or remove ourselves from the equation and not participate.

This sounds very familiar.  Many years ago, there was a member of the forum who spoke very much like you. He was constantly telling people they didn't belong in scouting.  So you should know that this is not a new argument.  It has popped up on the forum every few years since I joined.  When was that?  I can't remember anymore.  I do remember that this was the statement that prompted me to write my first post.  (Sighing nostalgically)

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by David CO

[CynicalScouter]

17 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

Or you can just not play the game and sort of don't ask don't tell.

The rule pertaining to no one on one contact between scouts and adults is a youth protection standard.

YPT is not a “game”.

And adult scout leaders keeping secrets is exactly how we got into 82,500 sexual abuse claims

Edited August 30, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

30 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

we have to follow the rules in their most current form ... or remove ourselves from the equation and not participate.

A scout is obedient.

So too should be scouters.

I couldn’t imagine being a hypocrite to say that I expect my scouts to follow the rules but I refuse to follow them and I’m gonna play games of “don’t ask don’t tell” involving adults making one on one contact with children in direct violation of YPT.

[Eagle1993]

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

The rule pertaining to no one on one contact between scouts and adults is a youth protection standard.

I hope in heavens name you are at least willing to abide by youth protection standards

I think he is talking about outside scouting activities.    To tell an 18 year old he has to give up a friendship to join as ASM is insane.  It is not the intent of YPT.  Basically, once you turn 18 you really can’t be in scouting as it is likely you will be around a 17 year old scout.  
 

Also, there is this. 
 

• Private online communications (texting, phone calls, chat, IM, etc.) must include another registered leader or parent.

So he can’t call his friend without his friends mom on the call.  

[David CO]

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

So he can’t call his friend without his friends mom on the call.  

Yes.  That's what it says.  

[Sentinel947]

1 hour ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Perhaps the commissioner corps (at the upper levels) should have a "common sense approach to scouting" RT wherein they discuss such things (to include inputs from scouters with boots on the ground - *speaking literally*. Post RT, they could draft a proposal for national to review...?

I would agree this particular area is grey in terms of "common sense", but... when it comes to YPT... there should only be black and white. I have about 15 ASMs and 20 committee members I deal with as a SM. We have had "0" YPT incidents during my tenure because I have constant discussions with the adult leaders and scouts regarding, "do try to seek out the grey areas and always err on the side of caution." The youth still have a great time, and there is zero tolerance for anything less what is expected under the YPT. 

In this particular case, if the scouts wants to remain in the unit during his senior year... he could have a lot of fun coking-and-joking with the other adults. Heck, maybe push him to attend Wood Badge and/or Powder Horn. Maybe even get involved with NYLT? There are so many different ways he could stay engaged in scouting that doesn't consist of hanging out as, "one of the scouts". 

Just my two cents... which ain't worth much. 🙃

I just want to clarify, we're talking about an 18 year old high school student registering as an ASM. He has friends who are also seniors.. or maybe they're juniors... and they're 16 or 17. YPT rules state no 1 on 1 contact between adults and youth, during or out side of BSA events. Nobody on this forum should advocate for breaking 1 on 1 contact rules during Scout outings, but pushing an 18 year old to chose between hanging out with their friends outside of Scouting events (hanging out and playing video games, going to the theme park, high school athletics, band, ect...) is a common sense overapplication of a rule that while generally a smart idea, breaks down when applied to this particular situation. 

Otherwise the rule is sound. There is literally no reason that literally any of us on this forum would have a reason to be alone with a Scout that is not our child, in person, or virtually, Scouting event or not. 

33 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

 

The whole outside of Scouting is an interesting over reach and while it has good intentions, that is what the road to Hell is paved with

 

The BSA had to draw a line and chose legal adult, 18. I totally get that. I don't think when the BSA wrote the rule to include outside BSA events contact, they thought of 18 year olds. They likely thought of "regular" adults. It would be very challenging, and create a lot of grey zones, to rewrite the rules to accommodate what is ultimately a fringe case. Most 18 year old's do not continue on with volunteering in the BSA. 

12 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

A scout is obedient.

So too should be scouters.

I couldn’t imagine being a hypocrite to say that I expect my scouts to follow the rules but I refuse to follow them and I’m gonna play games of “don’t ask don’t tell” involving adults making one on one contact with children in direct violation of YPT.

So what are you proposing an 18 year old senior do who wants to contribute to Scouting, but also wants to maintain contact outside of Scouting events with their lifelong friends who are 17? @CynicalScouterwhen your blood pressure goes back down, I'd love to hear your answer. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Sentinel947
Clarifying thoughts.

[Eagle1993]

4 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

So what are you proposing an 18 year old senior do who wants to contribute to Scouting, but also wants to maintain contact outside of Scouting events with their lifelong friends who are 17?

The only answer is to stop scouting or stop being a friend of the 17 year old.  Also, since they are in the same school and same robotics team, end that as well.  That is the only way for it to work.  I expect BSA would agree.  Its not worth the trouble.  How many cases of sex abuse were new 18 year old ASMs assualting their 17 year old ... my guess is almost 0, but that doesn't matter.

One other question, as I have one other 18 year old ASM.  Is it ok for an Adult to be one on one with their youth sibling?  I have a 18 year old ASM who has a 13 year old brother .. both in the Troop.  They are one on one many times outside scouting.  Are they violating YPT and should I report the 18 year old to my DE?  Just curious how far we are expected to take this.

I 100% agree that as an adult leader (44 years old), I should not be hanging out with any youth scouting member (other than my kids) one on one, regardless of activity.  I'm fine with that.  What I am seeing, the rules as written, make it nearly impossible to have an 18 year old continue in scouting ... unless they have no friends in the program.

[skeptic]

6 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

I just want to clarify, we're talking about an 18 year old high school student registering as an ASM. He has friends who are also seniors.. or maybe their juniors... and they're 16 or 17. YPT rules state no 1 on 1 contact between adults and youth, during or out side of BSA events. Nobody on this forum should advocate for breaking 1 on 1 contact rules during Scout outings, but pushing an 18 year old to chose between hanging out with their friends outside of Scouting events (hanging out and playing video games, going to the theme park, high school athletics, band, ect...) is a common sense overapplication of a rule that while generally a smart idea, breaks down when applied to this particular situation. 

Otherwise the rule is sound. There is literally no reason that I as an "established" adult would need to have one on one contact with any of my Scouts. 

The BSA had to draw a line and chose legal adult, 18. I totally get that. I don't think when the BSA wrote the rule to include outside BSA events contact, they thought of 18 year olds. They likely thought of "regular" adults. It would be very challenging, and create a lot of grey zones, to rewrite the rules to accommodate what is ultimately a fringe case. Most 18 year old's do not continue on with volunteering in the BSA. 

So what are you proposing an 18 year old senior do who wants to contribute to Scouting, but also wants to maintain contact outside of Scouting events with their lifelong friends who are 17?

Not to mention the 16 or 17 YO girls they may date.  My HS GF was a sophomore when I was a senior.  We cannot not simply ignore reality, only influence care and the lost idea of common sense.  Nothing new about that in those ancient days.  She turned 16 after I graduated.  Did not stay together long after that, but we did for a while.  I am sure that is an issue today as well.

[David CO]

2 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

So what are you proposing an 18 year old senior do who wants to contribute to Scouting, but also wants to maintain contact outside of Scouting events with their lifelong friends who are 17?

There is nothing to propose.  He can't do both without violating YPT.   He has to choose one or the other.  Please let us know what he decides.

The really interesting part of this ridiculous discussion is about what he is supposed to do if he should be required to interact with youth members at school.  Should he obey the YPT or should he follow school rules and regulations.  

[David CO]

4 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Also, since they are in the same school and same robotics team, end that as well.  That is the only way for it to work.  

Yes.  That is correct.

Also, forget about them going swimming at the YMCA.  Changing and showering together would really make BSA blow a cork!

[Eagle1993]

6 minutes ago, David CO said:

The really interesting part of this ridiculous discussion is about what he is supposed to do if he should be required to interact with youth members at school.  Should he obey the YPT or should he follow school rules and regulations. 

The encounter could create a time paradox, the result of which could cause a chain reaction that would unravel the very fabric of the space-time continuum and destroy the entire universe! Granted, that's worst-case scenario. The destruction might in fact be very localized, limited to merely our own galaxy.

[David CO]

4 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

The destruction might in fact be very localized, limited to merely our own galaxy.

That would spare BSA national.  Those guys live in a galaxy all of their own.  

[Sentinel947]

1 minute ago, David CO said:

There is nothing to propose.  He can't do both without violating YPT.   He has to choose one or the other.  Please let us know what he decides.

The really interesting part of this ridiculous discussion is about what he is supposed to do if he should be required to interact with youth members at school.  Should he obey the YPT or should he follow school rules and regulations.  

If schools attempted to apply such a rule it would grind the system to a halt. A senior QB wants to throw extra passes to an under 18 wide receiver after school? Nope. An 18 year old senior drives an under 18 year old neighbor to school? Nope. A 18 year old student and a 17 year old student meet at a parents house to work on a project? Nope. 

Again, I'm a big proponent of YPT. I'll defend it religiously. It's well intentioned, and for 99% of situations it makes a good deal of sense. When Parents and Leaders are following it and holding each other accountable to it, it should work well. In this particular scenario, it fails to account for reality. 

Here's a few of the challenges to trying to write an exception to the BSA YPT rules starting at 18. 

A 18 year old college freshman shows up at your unit to volunteer. They're new to the area having relocated for School. If I was running a unit, I would demand and expect that new ASM follow YPT rules, inside and outside of Scouting with any of my Scouts. 

Another scenario: an 18 year old senior just aged out of the Troop. I find out they spending of time with a 13 year old non-family Scout outside of Scouts. That would trigger me to act on that YPT violation.  

I'm really lost at how you write the rules to accommodate the common sense (an 18 year old senior should be able to hang out with their classmates, and be an ASM) without opening up the Pandora's box of violations like the two I mentioned. 
 

12 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

One other question, as I have one other 18 year old ASM.  Is it ok for an Adult to be one on one with their youth sibling?  I have a 18 year old ASM who has a 13 year old brother .. both in the Troop.  They are one on one many times outside scouting.  Are they violating YPT and should I report the 18 year old to my DE?  Just curious how far we are expected to take this.

What I am seeing, the rules as written, make it nearly impossible to have an 18 year old continue in scouting ... unless they have no friends in the program.

Your first point, my understanding is that YPT doesn't apply between family members, but I can't cite anything in the GTSS that would support that. 

To your second point, as the rule are written, the rules would preclude an 18 year old ASM from having 1 on 1 contact with their friends who are under 18.