18 Year Old Adult - YPT

[Eagle1993]

We have a scout ready to start his Senior year of high school that just turned 18.  He wants to keep participating, so I said sure, fill out this adult leader application & take YPT.  Now, the questions...

• - Can he be with a scouting friend (currently 17), 1-1 at a scouting function?
• - As an adult leader, would there be an issue if he was with his friend, 1-1, at a non scouting function?

I have 0 concerns in terms of actual safety.  They are best friends and have been for 14 years.  But now, at 18, one is treated as an adult by BSA.  Any thoughts?

[Sentinel947]

Ah yes, the grey zone of YPT.. The way the rules are written, 18 year olds are Adults for YPT purposes, no 1 on 1 contact at Scout events and outside of them too. 

I became an ASM at 18 during my Senior year of High School. My Troop and I followed the no 1 on 1 contact rule in Scouting events seriously. The friends I had before turning 18 I still hung out with outside of Scouting. I wasn't going to give up spending time with my friends outside of Scouts just to be a Scout volunteer. 

The youth I worked with in the Troop that weren't my peers in school or close friends prior to turning 18, I followed the no one on one contact rule outside of Scouts as well. By the time I was 20, all my close friends from High School had also aged out of the Troop and the grey zone went away. 

The BSA had to draw a line somewhere for YPT and chose 18. It does create some weirdness to manage for folks in that 17-18 year age group. 

Happy to chat more about the young ASM experience, one of the only unique perspectives I provide here. 

[David CO]

36 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

• - Can he be with a scouting friend (currently 17), 1-1 at a scouting function?

No.

36 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

• - As an adult leader, would there be an issue if he was with his friend, 1-1, at a non scouting function?I

Yes. 

 

36 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

They are best friends and have been for 14 years.  But now, at 18, one is treated as an adult by BSA.  Any thoughts?

Yes.  The guys at national are idiots.

Edited August 30, 2021 by David CO
The OP didn't ask for unsolicited advice.

[CynicalScouter]

2 hours ago, David CO said:

Yes.  The guys at national are idiots.

So then what is your solution? To say    “Adults may not have 1-on-1 contact with a scout EXCEPT” what?

Or do you not want 18 year olds considered adults?

Rather than throwing insults about National, what is your solution?

If they are idiots and you are so smart, offer a solution. Not petty insults.

Edited August 30, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[David CO]

1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said:

So then what is your solution?

I think BSA should have a form which identifies and recognizes pre-existing relationships outside of scouting.  If the scout and his parents notify BSA in this way that a pre-existing relationship exist outside of scouting, then BSA should recognize this relationship and allow an exemption from the rule.

[Eagle1993]

10 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

So then what is your solution? To say    “Adults may not have 1-on-1 contact with a scout EXCEPT” what?

Or do you not want 18 year olds considered adults?

Rather than throwing insults about National, what is your solution?

If they are idiots and you are so smart, offer a solution. Not petty insults.

A senior in high school should be treated as a youth as long as he/she is under 19.  We have youth that turn 18 before their senior year starts. 

[David CO]

14 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

A senior in high school should be treated as a youth as long as he/she is under 19.  We have youth that turn 18 before their senior year starts. 

That would work for this particular situation, but I would prefer a solution that covers a wider range of situations arising from this rule.  I don't think his being a high school senior is the main issue. 

The issue is parental rights.  The parents have the right to allow their son to have a young adult friend regardless of their memberships in scouting, and regardless of what what the guys at national think about it. 

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by David CO
misspelling

[Gilwell_1919]

Perhaps the commissioner corps (at the upper levels) should have a "common sense approach to scouting" RT wherein they discuss such things (to include inputs from scouters with boots on the ground - *speaking literally*. Post RT, they could draft a proposal for national to review...?

I would agree this particular area is grey in terms of "common sense", but... when it comes to YPT... there should only be black and white. I have about 15 ASMs and 20 committee members I deal with as a SM. We have had "0" YPT incidents during my tenure because I have constant discussions with the adult leaders and scouts regarding, "do try to seek out the grey areas and always err on the side of caution." The youth still have a great time, and there is zero tolerance for anything less what is expected under the YPT. 

In this particular case, if the scouts wants to remain in the unit during his senior year... he could have a lot of fun coking-and-joking with the other adults. Heck, maybe push him to attend Wood Badge and/or Powder Horn. Maybe even get involved with NYLT? There are so many different ways he could stay engaged in scouting that doesn't consist of hanging out as, "one of the scouts". 

Just my two cents... which ain't worth much. 🙃

[David CO]

1 minute ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

In this particular case, if the scouts wants to remain in the unit during his senior year... he could have a lot of fun coking-and-joking with the other adults. Heck, maybe push him to attend Wood Badge and/or Powder Horn. Maybe even get involved with NYLT? There are so many different ways he could stay engaged in scouting that doesn't consist of hanging out as, "one of the scouts". 

I agree as far as the young adults participation at scouting events is concerned.  I do not agree that it should effect their friendship outside of scouting.  BSA is over-reaching their authority on this one.

[Eagle1993]

6 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

Perhaps the commissioner corps (at the upper levels) should have a "common sense approach to scouting" RT wherein they discuss such things (to include inputs from scouters with boots on the ground - *speaking literally*. Post RT, they could draft a proposal for national to review...?

I would agree this particular area is grey in terms of "common sense", but... when it comes to YPT... there should only be black and white. I have about 15 ASMs and 20 committee members I deal with as a SM. We have had "0" YPT incidents during my tenure because I have constant discussions with the adult leaders and scouts regarding, "do try to seek out the grey areas and always err on the side of caution." The youth still have a great time, and there is zero tolerance for anything less what is expected under the YPT. 

In this particular case, if the scouts wants to remain in the unit during his senior year... he could have a lot of fun coking-and-joking with the other adults. Heck, maybe push him to attend Wood Badge and/or Powder Horn. Maybe even get involved with NYLT? There are so many different ways he could stay engaged in scouting that doesn't consist of hanging out as, "one of the scouts". 

Just my two cents... which ain't worth much. 🙃

My issue is this:

Quote

"Registered leaders must follow these guidelines with all Scouting youth outside of Scouting activities."

So ... my 18 year old Adult ASM, per YPT, CANNOT hang out with scouting youth (like his 17 year old best friend) outside of scouting activities.  

 

[yknot]

Scouts should be aged out based on calendar year not actual birth date. Most other youth organizations do this. So you can either remain as an 18 year old until Jan. 1 or June 1 or some other such cut off. The other way to do it is to create another youth membership tier. I have never understtood why scouting cut youth off at 18. It encourages them to leave prematurely. Plenty of scouts would continue to participate with their home unit, even if minimally, during college breaks if there was a way for them to do so until age 21. 

It has also become increasingly common for boys to be held back a year. Unlike sports, there is no real physical advantage to allowing a slight older youth to continue in scouting beyond their 18th birthday. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by yknot

[David CO]

14 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

My issue is this:

So ... my 18 year old Adult ASM, per YPT, CANNOT hang out with scouting youth (like his 17 year old best friend) outside of scouting activities.  

 

That is correct.  He must choose between his membership in BSA and continuing his friendship with his best bud.  I'm sorry.  I don't like it either.  But those are his choices if he is going to follow YPT.  

Edited August 30, 2021 by David CO

[Gilwell_1919]

12 minutes ago, David CO said:

I agree as far as the young adults participation at scouting events is concerned.  I do not agree that it should effect their friendship outside of scouting.  BSA is over-reaching their authority on this one.

I definitely understand the sentiment. The way I explain it to my ASMs and scouts is simple... take Locke. Hobbes, and Payne... they influence Thomas Jefferson's viewpoint of the civil society and the social contract that binds them together. If you participate in the society... you have to abide by the social contract. This is similar to scouting... if you choose to participate... you have to follow the rules (whether you agree with them or not). There are a lot of laws, statutes, and ordinances that I may not agree with... but accept to follow them because I want to participate in scouting. YPT may have some practical application errors at the ground level, but it sets a standard that we all choose to follow if we choose to be in scouts. 

Again, just my two cents.  

[David CO]

3 minutes ago, Gilwell_1919 said:

This is similar to scouting

No, it is not even close.  In making these over-reaching rules, BSA is the one who is not following the social contract.  BSA is the bad guy here.  Not the parents and scouts.

[Gilwell_1919]

17 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

My issue is this:

So ... my 18 year old Adult ASM, per YPT, CANNOT hang out with scouting youth (like his 17 year old best friend) outside of scouting activities.  

 

This is why we have JASMs and an Eagle patrol. All Eagle Scouts go into the Eagle Patrol and become JASMs. They eat with the adults and can congregate where the adults are. While they are not adults, we treat them as such. Fortunately, we have enough adults to ALWAYS have two-deep leadership. In the case of your 18-y/o ASM being 1-on-1 with a scout (*his best friend)... if we are following the patrol method and those two senior scouts are mentoring junior scouts... there should be very little opportunity for them to be 1-on-1. 

From my experience with this type of scenario, our senior eagle scout, who was the patrol leader of the eagle patrol, just aged out last month. We brought him into the mix as an ASM even though he is still in High School. He has 4 best friends in the eagle patrol. The thing is... the eagle patrol already eats with the adults and congregates with them, so there is not really an issue WRT youth protection. They all understand YPT... but that is because we have made YPT part of our Troop Culture. No one looks down on it... and they surely don't look for grey areas. Everyone knows we have a part to play to ensure everyone is safe. Perhaps, and this is just my opinion, you may want to look at not just doing YPT because it is a requirement... but really embracing it from the ground up with everyone in the unit actively applying it to all that they do. It doesn't stifle our program or scouts. We camp 1-2 times a month (12 months out of the year) and we have 60+ scouts in our troop. We also invite smaller troops and AOLs to join us, so some months we have a large number of campers. We've had zero incidents because YPT is part of our pre-campout safety brief... just like weather, water, and other safety measures we talk about before going into the field.