How are girls in Boy Scouts working out in other areas?

[Eagle94-A1]

I will keeep my troop doing Scouting until i am no longer capable. If "family scouting" is the only way to be in the BSA, the Scouting is dead, and I am gone.

[Cburkhardt]

Family Scouting:

As I have understood the BSA's use of the term "Family Scouting", it means operating a linked-Troop concept and not the idea of having non-Scouter family members going along on monthly campouts.  Our all-girl Troop is a stand-alone unit and is therefore not "Family Scouting".  I do not support non-Scouter family members attending monthly campouts and offer the following experience as support. 

For the last two years we experimented by celebrating the end of the program year with a combined May campout and Court of Honor at a nearby location.  The families were invited to drive out for a mid-day COH on Saturday -- and that worked perfectly.  We also invited families to camp overnight if they wished (there are special YPT rules for doing this, which we followed).  I will not be advising we allow them to camp with us next May, as some family members became meddlesome and disrupted the campout (and their own girl's participation and enjoyment).  Unlike Scouts, adult family members arrive with precise expectations of what their Scout and family should be experiencing, and this often differs from a traditional Scout weekend campout.  We actually lost a youth member over this, when a parent camping overnight declared that the Troop did not "measure up" to his childhood Troop memories because we did not require Scouts to participate in continuous advancement "classes" throughout the weekend.  A few others adults complained about the weather, food quality and similar matters -- on what anyone on this blog would regard as a "near-perfect" campout.  It would be impossible to provide a traditional outdoor Scouting program to Scouts if such family members and their disruptions were present on monthly campouts.  No Scoutmaster staff would be willing to deal with the accompanying disruptions.

"Family Scouting" in its strict implementation is the sharing of a Chartered Organization and Troop Committee.  Problems arise when Troop Committees and Scoutmasters break the rules and start "combining" things.  I urge you avoid such things.

Shortage of Female Scouters with Outdoor Experience:

We are starting our third September as an all-girl Troop, and for the first time I believe we have a sufficient number of female Assistant Scoutmasters who are genuinely experienced and enthused about the outdoor program.  Our large all-girl Troop has ten ASM's and now four of them are experienced female campers who present great role models.  We have others who are willing to camp, but prefer to provide other needed service to the Troop.  I think this is going to be a significant positive change for us.  These people are necessary and exist -- but it takes extra work to find and involve them.

[Eagle94-A1]

12 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

Family Scouting:

As I have understood the BSA's use of the term "Family Scouting", it means operating a linked-Troop concept and not the idea of having non-Scouter family members going along on monthly campouts..."Family Scouting" in its strict implementation is the sharing of a Chartered Organization and Troop Committee.  Problems arise when Troop Committees and Scoutmasters break the rules and start "combining" things.  I urge you avoid such things.

That may be national's definition of "family scouting,"  but that is not how it is being interpreted, especially with the mixed messages National is sending out about families going to HA bases, and councils promoting the camps for families to utilize. Also does anyone else remember the SCOUTING MAGAZINE article a few years back about family camping with Scout Age ( 11-17 years old) youth? 

12 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

For the last two years we experimented by celebrating the end of the program year with a combined May campout and Court of Honor at a nearby location.  The families were invited to drive out for a mid-day COH on Saturday -- and that worked perfectly.  We also invited families to camp overnight if they wished (there are special YPT rules for doing this, which we followed).  I will not be advising we allow them to camp with us next May, as some family members became meddlesome and disrupted the campout (and their own girl's participation and enjoyment).  Unlike Scouts, adult family members arrive with precise expectations of what their Scout and family should be experiencing, and this often differs from a traditional Scout weekend campout.  We actually lost a youth member over this, when a parent camping overnight declared that the Troop did not "measure up" to his childhood Troop memories because we did not require Scouts to participate in continuous advancement "classes" throughout the weekend.  A few others adults complained about the weather, food quality and similar matters -- on what anyone on this blog would regard as a "near-perfect" campout.  It would be impossible to provide a traditional outdoor Scouting program to Scouts if such family members and their disruptions were present on monthly campouts.  No Scoutmaster staff would be willing to deal with the accompanying disruptions.

You are preaching to the choir. I have NEVER (emphasis)  had a good family camp out at the Boy Scout/Scouts BSA in over 30 years.  Last time I dealt with the situation above, it lasted monthly for 18 months. I lost track of the number of parents meetings, counseling sessions, ad nauseum I and others did trying to real in adults. The SM was trying to work with them and wean the new parents from Cub Scouts. It got to the point that nor only the SM corps wanted to resign, but also the Scouts were getting fed up with the interference. When my sons had enough, we walked.

12 hours ago, Cburkhardt said:

Shortage of Female Scouters with Outdoor Experience:

We are starting our third September as an all-girl Troop, and for the first time I believe we have a sufficient number of female Assistant Scoutmasters who are genuinely experienced and enthused about the outdoor program.  Our large all-girl Troop has ten ASM's and now four of them are experienced female campers who present great role models.  We have others who are willing to camp, but prefer to provide other needed service to the Troop.  I think this is going to be a significant positive change for us.  These people are necessary and exist -- but it takes extra work to find and involve them.

Yep grow your own. And 3 years is about right.  Even BSA now admits "

Internal and external research shows that mom is usually the decision maker when it comes to extracurricular activities for children of Cub Scout age.  Therefore, building outdoor activities and events that appeal to moms is key to getting as many Cub Scouts outdoors as possible." and "their parents may be anxious or concerned about what camping might be like for their family."

https://www.scouting.org/outdoor-programs/trail-to-adventure/cub-scouting-and-the-outdoor-program/?fbclid=IwAR3YeG_mSqka_uzXtrVL42WKxEN48fmdtsOkFdEUMsm40zpSKTYcPYiB0ws

IMHO this is a major hurdle female troops need to overcome. AND I have been told you still see some meddling, even with officially "trained" Scouters, because they do not have the experience to know when to leave the Scouts alone.

 

[Cambridgeskip]

On 8/23/2021 at 4:22 PM, Eagledad said:

Sure, with two older sons and a little girl trailing, I learned there and at other youth organizations that girls tend to fixate on being organized while boys tend to be more adventure oriented. And, in general, girls tend to think in a small picture of details while the boys think in the big picture. What I found is that the young girls will take over a group of boys when it comes to planning and organizing because they like dealing with details. Ever watch very young girls play house? Boys willingly give that up because they hate the tedious small stuff in organizing. 

What is more frustrating about those trends is that adults interpret the girls organization skills as good leadership skills, when that isn't the case. Girls struggle a lot with the chaos of group dynamics. Boys do to, but only when they don't agree on the goals. And I get so tired of adults bragging about the girls organizational skills to motivate boys to step up. It only frustrates boys relationship and trust with the adults.

Growth comes much easier for both groups when they are dealing with the same general struggles of the group personalities because the growth gains from the decisions are basically the same. Or can be coached or mentored basically the same. Many believe boys are slower to mature, but the reality is that the instincts of the two genders appose each other so much that the nature tendency for adventure contrasted against organization makes the boys appear less mature. Throw a few boys together in a paint ball match and see how quickly they will make a plan. It's amazing really. Girls struggle just coming together as a group.

This is not to say some boys are better at organization and some girls are adventure minded. But, in the big picture. the two genders don't mix well until puberty. AND that has it's own struggles.

Barry

There's some really interesting stuff there from Barry.

Here in the UK scouts is fully coed and what Barry says rings true. While of course there are exceptions as a very broad brush comment girls tend to be better at getting something right first time, boys though tend to be better at fixing it when it goes wrong. So put them on a pioneering project and the girls may well come up with a beautifully lashed contraption quicker. However watch for those projects that suddenly don't work and it tends to be the boys that figure out the work around.

That is not to say coed scouts doesn't work, I'd actually say that those differences mean that coed patrols work very well because you have those mixtures of inputs. It is important though for the adults involved to make sure that both boys and girls have opportunities in which to develop.

[HelpfulTracks]

On 8/23/2021 at 1:17 AM, Tatung42 said:

 

 

So, I guess questions that I have:

Does anyone have examples of successful new girl troops that are actually operating independently?

Are the boy troops doing girls a disservice by offering the fully coed program?

Do you agree that policies will change soon and that troops are going to go fully coed in the near future?

If nothing changes, how are the struggling girls troops supposed to improve their quality of program so that it is on par with the girl patrols in the boy troops?  Should adult leaders share some of the leadership to help things get off the ground?

We have had 20 or so Girl Troops across the Council. My daughter was in both Troop and Crew at the same time. (so was my son). 

I would say the results have been mixed, just like Boy Troops. Some do well and some do not. 

Some observations of Troops I saw.

Age distribution was very much a divide. The vast majority of the girls were with 11 or 12 (from Cubs or new) or they we 16 or 17 (coming from Crews) . Very few fell in the 13-15 age group. As a result there was a natural divide that made it difficult for some troops. 

Most of the Scoutmasters were females that came up through Cubs. I know of only one male SM for a girls troop. Some had female or male leaders (mostly ASMs) who had experience with boy troops, thus with patrol method, the outdoors, OA etc. 

Roughly 1/3 to 1/2 of the girl troops were aligned with a boy troop. I heard of only one that was mixing as cooed - or more accurately, doing all activities together. The rest camped separately, met separately (but in same building),  and basically functioned separately. Now there was some working together, particularly in service projects. I also saw boy troops and crews asked to come and train basic scouting skills.

Successes and failures.

The age gap was tough, some older girls dropped because they felt like baby sitters. Some younger girls dropped because they felt they couldn't keep up. 

Some troops suffered from Webelos 3 syndrome. Which compounded the issue of older girls leaving.

We have had about 25 girls elected to the OA and have had one female Lodge officer the last 2 years. Sash and dash ration was better than the boys, but verdict is still out for year 2.  We did notice that not having a history with understanding what the OA is and that Ordeal is difficult, we had some that were completely unprepared for Ordeal, even though we tried prepare them. Mostly among adults. I think that will fade with time. 

[mrjohns2]

23 hours ago, HelpfulTracks said:

We did notice that not having a history with understanding what the OA is and that Ordeal is difficult, we had some that were completely unprepared for Ordeal, even though we tried prepare them.

As a youth officer who ran 4 or 5 ordeal weekends, this was true for boys. Especially when we held our ordeals in late October. Our opinion was "these are First Class Scouts". Not all seemed to have learned the skills a First Class Scout should have. 

[Oldscout448]

3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

As a youth officer who ran 4 or 5 ordeal weekends, this was true for boys. Especially when we held our ordeals in late October. Our opinion was "these are First Class Scouts". Not all seemed to have learned the skills a First Class Scout should have. 

Hereabouts " not all" is nearly half. 

The girls actually seem to handle adverse conditions a bit better than the boys.

[HelpfulTracks]

3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

As a youth officer who ran 4 or 5 ordeal weekends, this was true for boys. Especially when we held our ordeals in late October. Our opinion was "these are First Class Scouts". Not all seemed to have learned the skills a First Class Scout should have. 

 

46 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

Hereabouts " not all" is nearly half. 

The girls actually seem to handle adverse conditions a bit better than the boys.

Oh, yes. We definitely had boys not prepared physically, But most still knew what they were getting into by talking to their troop mates.

Girls just currently do not have that built in knowledge base for the most part.

Additionally, most of those that were surprised we the adults - those that have had very little or no scouting experience prior to joining their current troop. Since they do not have other adults with OA experience, they just seemed to be taken off taken off guard about what the Ordeal experience is.