How are girls in Boy Scouts working out in other areas?

[Tatung42]

In my district, we only have one pure girl troop left.  From what I know, they are struggling (granted that with COVID, I would guess that it would be hard for ANY new troop to get established in these times).  Even with great adult leaders, the youth leaderships are inexperienced and still developing, so the program is a bit rocky.  It makes it hard to keep scouts in the troop interested and engaged and makes it even harder to recruit new scouts.  Many of the girls that initially joined have either quit or have moved to a “linked troop”.

Now onto linked troops…

Our four large boy troops all have established a female “linked troops” associated with them.  However, all four of these girl "troops" are just operating as a patrol within the boy troop.  In fact, one of the troops just elected a girl as the SPL of the entire troop.  The “Scoutmaster” of the girls troop just acts as the ASM for the girl patrol. 

All of the adults see no issue with operating the troop in this way even though it is clearly against the guidelines of how linked troops should be operated.  In fact, some of them flaunt what they are doing at district and council meetings.  They see the separate gender troops as just a steppingstone to keep those who don’t like change from becoming too distraught.  They genuinely believe that policies will change within the next few years and that troops will become coed.  I think the exact phrasing was “once the conservative old farts realize the world isn’t ending because we have girls in Scouting, troops will be fully co-ed, so why not just do it now.”

 

So, I guess questions that I have:

Does anyone have examples of successful new girl troops that are actually operating independently?

Are the boy troops doing girls a disservice by offering the fully coed program?

Do you agree that policies will change soon and that troops are going to go fully coed in the near future?

If nothing changes, how are the struggling girls troops supposed to improve their quality of program so that it is on par with the girl patrols in the boy troops?  Should adult leaders share some of the leadership to help things get off the ground?

Edited August 23, 2021 by Tatung42
fixed typos

[Eagle1993]

In my council there may be 1-2 all girl Troops, not linked, doing ok.   Most are linked Troops operated in the fashion you state.  My Troop(s) is/are one, though, not for the reason you state.

No, the boy troops are not doing the girl troops a disservice for operating like a coed.  Perhaps the reverse is true.

I expect the policy will change but I’m not sure if soon.

Struggling girl troops will be like venturing crews.  Unless there is a strong girl Cubscout pack, they likely won’t last in many cases.  

My experience running both a coed pack and linked troops. 
 

The issue I see is that GSUSA is pretty good from K5 -5th grade.  In Cubscouts the only time we get a lot of girls is when the GSUSA troop for that age collapses.  That doesn’t typically happen until middle school …. Which is too late for Cubscouts.

So, the girls we get are typically siblings, and fare fewer than the boys.  The parents signing them up are doing it so they can join the existing dens.  There is simply not enough volunteers to manage 12 dens in most packs.

At Scouts BSA level - similar.  Since Scouts BSA is really built on recruiting kids from Packs and there are few girls joining Cubscouts  (and most of those are siblings) creating Girl only Troops has been very difficult and many are not sustainable.  Then you come to lack of volunteers with the linked Troops.  Finally, the girls in our linked Troop don’t want it to be independent from the boys. 
 

Now I am sympathetic to the argument if the boys are being negatively impacted by adding girls. I’m willing to admit there is an argument there.  While they boys in my Troop all say they like the arrangement, I know that may not be the whole answer.

[mrjohns2]

We are a weakly linked troop and it is going well. We have 11 registered, with 8 active. We have had 1-3 cross over each year. We meet on the same nights as the boy troop, but in a different room. It has worked well. 
 

I really dislike hearing about linked troops being a girl patrol within a boy troop. That isn’t the intent of the program. I feel like it is because adults didn’t like the program as designed and they are choosing to bastardize it.

[Eagle1993]

22 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I really dislike hearing about linked troops being a girl patrol within a boy troop. That isn’t the intent of the program. I feel like it is because adults didn’t like the program as designed and they are choosing to bastardize it.

I understand that is not the intent; however, our council, the council of our summer camp and even Philmont is 100% fine with how the Troops are operating.  We just had a coed crew (not venturing .. Troop) complete a trek at Philmont.  Nearly every girl that participated in Klondike this past February was a member of a coed patrol. 

I took over as SM of a Troop like this.  During my SM conferences, I've asked the girls and 100% of them have said they would not want to be in a separate Troop.   I've asked the boys, including my son ... their comments range from threating to quit if we break up the Troops (from one of the girl's brothers) to indifference.  Now ... I know that kids don't always tell the SM how they really feel ... they may tell him what they think he wants to hear.  But overall, from watching how the Troop operates & how the girls/boys interact ... it works well for the scouts we have.

What does it look like?  The girls that are athletic play sports with the boys who like sports during down time.  The girls focused on advancement work on advancement with the boys that have that focus.  The quiet/shy ones find their own space as well.

Now, as I mentioned, I 100% agree that for some boys it may not work well ... those who are nervous around girls.  I also am concerned a bit long term as several of the girls are more leadership/advancement driven and could take over.  I would push back on BSA if they ever removed the option for troops to be all male.  That offering should remain.

Now ...for the girls that flourish in an all girl environment ... there is GSUSA.  GSUSA does a better job than the BSA in an all girl group setting.  My daughter does both, and if BSA just offered segregated units she would definitely not be part of the BSA as she can get that (better) with GSUSA.  I'm not sure why BSA thinks they could do this better ... I haven't seen it, even with the all girl Troops/Packs.

[Eagledad]

My reason against girls in troops is that their natural instinct of organization disrupts the growth of boys learning to organize. But, I could see all girl patrols working within the true patrol method since the personal challenges wouldn't be gender specific. The problems of natural instincts fade as each gender reaches puberty, so I don't think older scout leadership is a big problem at the older ages. It's not perfect, but we live in a culture that cares less about maximin potential growth of the youth.

Barry

[SiouxRanger]

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

My reason against girls in troops is that their natural instinct of organization disrupts the growth of boys learning to organize. But, I could see all girl patrols working within the true patrol method since the personal challenges wouldn't be gender specific. The problems of natural instincts fade as each gender reaches puberty, so I don't think older scout leadership is a big problem at the older ages. It's not perfect, but we live in a culture that cares less about maximin potential growth of the youth.

Barry

Having sons, could you enlighten me about "girls' natural organization instincts?" Thanks.

[CynicalScouter]

19 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

My reason against girls in troops is that their natural instinct of organization disrupts the growth of boys learning to organize.

This came up in the spring when there was a BSA virtual open forum.

During the February 2021 Scouts, BSA Office Hours, Scott Berger (a Scouts, BSA National Leader) was asked why no coed Troops.

This was his response video from 28:30-31:00

"That [coed troops] is not in the plan. Nobody supports that [coed troops]. And there's good reason for it. The reason that the program is laid out the way it is currently is because we realized that in many respects girls mature quicker than boys. And having a coed program would disadvantage the boys. And we don't want that. I'm making a joke now. Lot of married people out there. You understand. You know why. Females take over sometimes. That was a joke.

But what I really want to say is that we looked at the experience not only in Venturing, where young women will often assume leadership roles, but we also looked at other countries where they went towards coed troops and a coed way of doing things and it really hurt the young men to the point that the young men quit scouting by about 50%. We don't want that to happen here in the BSA.

So there is no plan. Whenever anybody asks about it, we say very firmly, that's not happening. So, take it to the bank as best you can. But that [coed troops] is not happening."

Edited August 23, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[Eagle1993]

24 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

But what I really want to say is that we looked at the experience not only in Venturing, where young women will often assume leadership roles, but we also looked at other countries where they went towards coed troops and a coed way of doing things and it really hurt the young men to the point that the young men quit scouting by about 50%. We don't want that to happen here in the BSA.

Oh I know and remember his comments.  

If this was their opinion, then they should have never added girls.  There is a great organization that serves girls in a single gender format.  There is no need for BSA to enter that space.  Also, they should ensure Philmont doesn't allow coed crews, summer camps stop supporting coed acting Troops, councils from advising how to handle coed activities and ending charters of all Troops/Packs that violate this.  They won't as they need the dues. 

So, they will continue to know most units with girls operate as coed but at the leadership level spout they are single gender.

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, SiouxRanger said:

Having sons, could you enlighten me about "girls' natural organization instincts?" Thanks.

Sure, with two older sons and a little girl trailing, I learned there and at other youth organizations that girls tend to fixate on being organized while boys tend to be more adventure oriented. And, in general, girls tend to think in a small picture of details while the boys think in the big picture. What I found is that the young girls will take over a group of boys when it comes to planning and organizing because they like dealing with details. Ever watch very young girls play house? Boys willingly give that up because they hate the tedious small stuff in organizing. 

What is more frustrating about those trends is that adults interpret the girls organization skills as good leadership skills, when that isn't the case. Girls struggle a lot with the chaos of group dynamics. Boys do to, but only when they don't agree on the goals. And I get so tired of adults bragging about the girls organizational skills to motivate boys to step up. It only frustrates boys relationship and trust with the adults.

Growth comes much easier for both groups when they are dealing with the same general struggles of the group personalities because the growth gains from the decisions are basically the same. Or can be coached or mentored basically the same. Many believe boys are slower to mature, but the reality is that the instincts of the two genders appose each other so much that the nature tendency for adventure contrasted against organization makes the boys appear less mature. Throw a few boys together in a paint ball match and see how quickly they will make a plan. It's amazing really. Girls struggle just coming together as a group.

This is not to say some boys are better at organization and some girls are adventure minded. But, in the big picture. the two genders don't mix well until puberty. AND that has it's own struggles.

Barry

Edited August 23, 2021 by Eagledad

[Cburkhardt]

Scoutmaster of 48-Girl Troop Responds

Q:        Does anyone have examples of successful new girl troops that are actually operating independently?

A:        In our Council, we have a number of unlinked girl Troops that are large, outstanding units.  These Troops operate nearly identically to large, successful all-boy Troops.  I am Scoutmaster of one of these.  We have 48 girl members, 4 patrols a 9-person scoutmaster staff and an 18-person Troop Committee.  The Troop is fully youth led.  This summer we took 33 Scouts to our council summer camp and 14 to high adventure experiences.  We should have three Eagles by year-end and each is achieving this in a traditional and rigorous manner – none of those 18-month concentrated efforts.  You can learn about us at:  https://www.ScoutsBsaDcGirls.org.

Q:        Are the boy troops doing girls a disservice by offering the fully coed program?

A:        As we are all-girl, we do not have this experience.  My observation of troops that take the disallowed “girl patrol” approach is that the girl patrols are smaller, less effective and experience an inferior program in comparison to our large, traditional patrols.  At summer camp, there were 20 units in camp and seven were all-girl troops.  There were no integrated “girl patrol” troops present.  The all-girl troops appeared to be functioning well.

Q:        Do you agree that policies will change soon and that troops are going to go fully coed in the near future?

A:        I regretfully believe it will eventually happen and that the result will be reduction in the number of all-boy or all-girl troops.

Q:        If nothing changes, how are the struggling girls troops supposed to improve their quality of program so that it is on par with the girl patrols in the boy troops?  Should adult leaders share some of the leadership to help things get off the ground?

A.        I do not agree with the underlying assumption.  All-girl troops that operate in a full and robust manner are far better units for girls and offer them more opportunity than so-called “girl patrol” troops.  In our district, we have two unlinked and one linked girl troops.  All seem to be working out well.  The unlinked Troops are bigger and have better programs, because they have Troop Committees and scoutmaster staffs that concentrate on providing strong program for girls.  Girl troops that are struggling need help on the fundamentals from fellow unit leaders and commissioners.  The program and organizational structure does not need any change or adaption.

Q:        GSUSA competition.

A.        We do not compete with GSUSA in our locality.  We are intensely outdoor and they are not.  Our SPL and PLC run things.  In their local program the adults dominate. It is an apples and oranges comparison.  We have several youth and adult members who are former GSUSA members and three girls who are dual registered.  The above observations come from them and not me.

Q:        “My reason against girls in troops is that their natural instinct of organization disrupts the growth of boys learning to organize.”

A:        I think Eagledad is on to something here.  Our girls are highly organized from age 11 and onward.  They participate in two-hour planning sessions, sitting still and without losing a single thought.  Young boys are less likely to experience natural leadership growth in that circumstance.  Girls launch into more-sophisticated leadership efforts at a younger age because their fellow Scouts are at a similar developmental plane.  We should not hold these girls back from those kinds of activities if they are ready for it.  I think it would be less effective to mix same-age boys into that process, because boys should not be expected to “sit still” and “be quiet” like girls.  Boys should be free and encouraged to engage in boy-appropriate behaviors as they discover their own leadership styles.

[qwazse]

Strange. I haven't seen a whole lot of natural instinct for organization among girls. I challenge young teens to build crews, the first step being getting them and five buddies to show up at my door and tell me they want to get started. That first step is very, very, hard for them.

Among Girl Scouts, on the other hand, they are cracker-jack organizers. It was a group of girl scouts who rebooted our crew and then handed it off to a next generation.

If BSA wanted to draw a solid line in the sand, they should of kept "Boy Scouts" and added a stand-alone "Boy Scouts for Girls." They clearly wanted to market to parents and scouters who wanted a little less "separate, but equal" while appeasing the other troops who wanted girls to be a trebuchet launch away.

My scouts (boys) are pretty much divided. We had some good campfire discussions a summer camp. (They only place our boys spend time with girl troops for any length.) I maintained back-channel conversations with one troop's leaders because some of our boys were making friends in the course of a week and I was concerned about any imposition. The leader said that, on the contrary, their girls were grateful to have at least a few young men in camp who treated them like fellow scouts. One of my older scouts, on the other hand, told me that he did not like the situation and that he said as much -- respectfully -- to a female staff who asked his opinion. I'm not sure if it was in the presence of other female campers. But, he's was not the kind of guy who would be obnoxious about it. But he clearly felt that guys needed their space to do well. The boys were willing to agree to disagree on the matter, so I encouraged them to keep up the good work and not sweep anything under the rug.

Edited August 23, 2021 by qwazse

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Strange. I haven't seen a whole lot of natural instinct for organization among girls. I challenge young teens to build crews, the first step being getting them and five buddies to show up at my door and tell me they want to get started. That first step is very, very, hard for them.

Totally agree. My Paintball analogy reflects the same thought. My guess is that organizing strangers into a functional group is a different type of organization skill The reason the Girl Scouts are able to do it so well is because they learned over the years in their Troop.

I did an exercise like this at each of our Council JLT training. After all the participants arrived to course, we gave them 15 minutes to organize into patrols of 7 with each scout assigned to a POR position. The only restriction was no two scouts from the same troop could be in a patrol.

Barry

[skeptic]

40 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Totally agree. My Paintball analogy reflects the same thought. My guess is that organizing strangers into a functional group is a different type of organization skill The reason the Girl Scouts are able to do it so well is because they learned over the years in their Troop.

I did an exercise like this at each of our Council JLT training. After all the participants arrived to course, we gave them 15 minutes to organize into patrols of 7 with each scout assigned to a POR position. The only restriction was no two scouts from the same troop could be in a patrol.

Barry

I will not reiterate my own previously shared observations from 20 years of subbing, many in middle school.  My personal thought is that they base the idea of conflict in leadership on questionable psychological opinions that were arrived at with targeted studies that were likely weighted for a specific opinion.  I am not overly trusting of most so called studies, as they generally are far too small and often do not hold water in real life.  And we are all living in real life. 

[Eagle94-A1]

My responses will be in red 

On 8/23/2021 at 1:17 AM, Tatung42 said:

In my district, we only have one pure girl troop left.  From what I know, they are struggling (granted that with COVID, I would guess that it would be hard for ANY new troop to get established in these times).  Even with great adult leaders, the youth leaderships are inexperienced and still developing, so the program is a bit rocky.  It makes it hard to keep scouts in the troop interested and engaged and makes it even harder to recruit new scouts.  Many of the girls that initially joined have either quit or have moved to a “linked troop”.

Now onto linked troops…

Our four large boy troops all have established a female “linked troops” associated with them.  However, all four of these girl "troops" are just operating as a patrol within the boy troop.  In fact, one of the troops just elected a girl as the SPL of the entire troop.  The “Scoutmaster” of the girls troop just acts as the ASM for the girl patrol. 

All of the adults see no issue with operating the troop in this way even though it is clearly against the guidelines of how linked troops should be operated.  In fact, some of them flaunt what they are doing at district and council meetings.  They see the separate gender troops as just a steppingstone to keep those who don’t like change from becoming too distraught.  They genuinely believe that policies will change within the next few years and that troops will become coed.  I think the exact phrasing was “once the conservative old farts realize the world isn’t ending because we have girls in Scouting, troops will be fully co-ed, so why not just do it now.”

 

Does anyone have examples of successful new girl troops that are actually operating independently?

Partially.  Summer Camp and COHs are joint troop activities. Mostly due to logistics and the fact that siblings and parents are in both troops. Otherwise the two troop are separate doing their own meetings and monthly activities. In fact the girls troop is more active than the boys.

Quote

Are the boy troops doing girls a disservice by offering the fully coed program?

IMHO "coed troops" do more of a disserve to the boys than the girls. as noted above. In fact, the girls troop I know specifically does not do meetings and monthly trips with the boys troop because they are more of a hinderance than a help. The Boy's troop is not as organized, and the girls get frustrated.

 

Quote

Do you agree that policies will change soon and that troops are going to go fully coed in the near future?

Eventually yes I do, especially as National keeps harping on "family scouting." Do not get me started on "family scouting."

 

Quote

If nothing changes, how are the struggling girls troops supposed to improve their quality of program so that it is on par with the girl patrols in the boy troops?  Should adult leaders share some of the leadership to help things get off the ground?

Girls' Troop need experienced Scouters with a youth background in the outdoor program who know how the program is supposed to be run and can implement it. Training can only go so far with new folks. Experienced Scouters willing to teach and mentor new Scouts is vital to a successful program. The troop I referenced above has that experienced SM ( he was my sons' old troop's SM until his daughter was able to join). The problem he is encountering is that NONE (emphasis) of his female ASMs has an outdoor background beyond family camping at the Cub Scout level. So not only is he working with his Scouts, but the adults as well.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Eagle94-A1

[Jameson76]

16 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

National keeps harping on "family scouting." Do not get me started on "family scouting."

 

That's the term that continues to frighten me.  If bankruptcy, chartered partners leaving, councils selling camps, Summit costs, or local councils folding do not kill the Scouts BSA program, surely "Family Scouting" will be the death of it.  

This concept goes against the whole program.  Not saying family camping as a concept is bad, good for families to get out and do things together, you don't need an organization to go and do that.  It's just that the patrol method, Scouts getting experiential learning on how to lead things by themselves, having the opportunity to fail, having the opportunity to solve things and succeed; will NOT work with family camping.

Leaders and adults have to be in the background.  End of story