Why did BSA make Cub Scouting more expensive?

[malraux]

Just now, Ojoman said:

Many parents that don't/won't sign up as Den leaders still come to the meetings and remain until time to leave. A den leader can count a spouse, parent of another child or other adult at least 18 or older as the 2nd person.  This is from Scouting Magazine, "

• Two-deep leadership is required on all outings. A minimum of two registered adult leaders — or one registered leader and a participating Scout’s parent or another adult — is required for all trips and outings. One of these adults must be 21 years of age or older.'

It can be done and it is not that difficult. If a male and female den meets together for den meetings or field trips be sure to have one male and one female present. It is advisable that all parents in a pack (registered or not) have youth protection training. 

There are no 'reasons' not to, only excuses...

This is out of date with the current version of the Guide to Safe Scouting. Two deep now requires two registered leaders both over aged 21, and because many dens are going coed, one of those leaders needs to be female.

[Ojoman]

1 hour ago, malraux said:

This is out of date with the current version of the Guide to Safe Scouting. Two deep now requires two registered leaders both over aged 21, and because many dens are going coed, one of those leaders needs to be female.

Thanks for the correction... I'm not saying that it is not a good idea but that would add 5 or 6 new leader registrations and double that if the pack has 'girl dens'. Looking at $250 to $500 or more depending on council surcharges at recharter time. 

I can understand the paranoia after the lawsuits and bankruptcy but sometimes the pendulum swings a bit too far. 

The 2021 printing of the Merit Badge Counselor application allows counselors to register without a fee. Perhaps we need to do this for the 2nd adult in Cubbing... 

"Merit badge counselors must register as adult Scouters and be approved by the council advancement committee for each merit badge listed on this Merit Badge Counselor Information form. A merit badge counselor does not have to pay a registration fee, but must complete an Adult Application for position code 42, fill out this form, and complete BSA Youth Protection training. Submit the Adult Application with the Merit Badge Counselor Information form to your council. Counselors may wish to associate with a particular unit but are encouraged to serve any Scout from any unit." This was from 2021, let me know if this has changed too. Thanks

 

[malraux]

Most dens are coed (un)officially now and will be fully official starting this summer, based on the rumors going around. 

[Ojoman]

2 hours ago, malraux said:

Most dens are coed (un)officially now and will be fully official starting this summer, based on the rumors going around. 

I expect that it will be inevitable and the same for troops. It is stupid to have girls in AOL dens and lack a girls troop for them to cross over to. The folks at national are at once extremely cautious (gun shy after the bankruptcy) and not very forward thinking...

[HashTagScouts]

4 hours ago, Ojoman said:

Thanks for the correction... I'm not saying that it is not a good idea but that would add 5 or 6 new leader registrations and double that if the pack has 'girl dens'. Looking at $250 to $500 or more depending on council surcharges at recharter time. 

I can understand the paranoia after the lawsuits and bankruptcy but sometimes the pendulum swings a bit too far. 

The 2021 printing of the Merit Badge Counselor application allows counselors to register without a fee. Perhaps we need to do this for the 2nd adult in Cubbing... 

"Merit badge counselors must register as adult Scouters and be approved by the council advancement committee for each merit badge listed on this Merit Badge Counselor Information form. A merit badge counselor does not have to pay a registration fee, but must complete an Adult Application for position code 42, fill out this form, and complete BSA Youth Protection training. Submit the Adult Application with the Merit Badge Counselor Information form to your council. Counselors may wish to associate with a particular unit but are encouraged to serve any Scout from any unit." This was from 2021, let me know if this has changed too. Thanks

 

MBCs are not considered a registered adult leader for any purpose other than for MBs. They are not expected to be trained on any other part of the program and serve a role in the outdoor program or troop/patrol meetings. Units do use it to avoid paying fees, but that is not at all appropriate (a Scout is trustworthy). 

MBCs especially should have nothing to do with the Cub program.

[cmd]

2 hours ago, Ojoman said:

I expect that it will be inevitable and the same for troops. It is stupid to have girls in AOL dens and lack a girls troop for them to cross over to. 

Having been on campouts with both of our affiliated troops, it seems very clear to me that merging the boy troops with the girl troops would quickly end with the girls bossing around the boys and the boys deciding they didn't need one more place for people to tell them what to do.

But at the cub level, we haven't seen that to be an issue.  We started our trying to have separate dens, but with smaller numbers of girls and the normal membership fluctuations from one year to the next, one girl deciding she'd rather do something else would have meant kicking out two others. 

I think the ideal would be to have mixed gender dens for K-3 and start splitting them by gender by the time they become Webelos.  Once they start being invited to do things with troops, it's easier to already be separate and not have to tell the girls they aren't invited. 

Typically, the girl troops may not be as close or as many to choose from as the boys, but by the time kids are in middle school, parents are used to driving them an hour away for travel sport leagues, so we've found that a 20-30 minute drive once a week doesn't get a lot of pushback.

[cmd]

7 hours ago, malraux said:

Two deep now requires two registered leaders both over aged 21, and because many dens are going coed, one of those leaders needs to be female.

I understand their need to protect the organization from future liability, but I STRONGLY believe that there should be an exception to these rules for activities where every child has a parent present.  There's no logical reason why a lion den meeting needs to have two registered adults present, or why one of them should have to be female if there are girls, when we are already requiring that their parent partner attends with them.   And things like popcorn both sales should be able to have two scouts working it with their own parents there supervising, even if the parent isn't registered.

[Eagledad]

After many years of observing BSA units, I find that economics and ignorance are big drivers of unit procedures because few adults understand the BSA vision enough to keep their program compass pointed north. Adults will get what they want one way or another. Council would only step in when they see a liability risk. The next few years will be interesting.

Barry

[Ojoman]

6 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

. The next few years will be interesting.

Barry

Hi Barry... The next few years will determine the future of the program. There are literally millions of additional youth available to recruit today than in the mid 70's when our membership peaked plus we now can recruit girls at all levels and Cubs starts at grade k instead of grade 3. Parents are starting to realize that all the computer/internet time is taking away many of the experiences that they held dear. Playing outdoors, camping, being involved in a youth program, growing socially, physically, and morally/ethically. Today, college professors worry that their students term papers will be written by artificial intelligence. Kids bully other kids on social media, and on line predators stalk children on online game sites and friend them on their Facebook pages or invite them to chat rooms. There are so many more issues that face families and kids today and while Scouting can't solve all of them, Scouting can help. As the parent of an Eagle Scout I expect that you are well aware. Few things are more powerful than 'shared vision'. We need to share the opportunities and possibilities that Scouting brings to kids, parents, whole families. Thanks for your comments. 

 

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, Ojoman said:

Hi Barry... The next few years will determine the future of the program. There are literally millions of additional youth available to recruit today than in the mid 70's when our membership peaked plus we now can recruit girls at all levels and Cubs starts at grade k instead of grade 3. Parents are starting to realize that all the computer/internet time is taking away many of the experiences that they held dear. Playing outdoors, camping, being involved in a youth program, growing socially, physically, and morally/ethically. Today, college professors worry that their students term papers will be written by artificial intelligence. Kids bully other kids on social media, and on line predators stalk children on online game sites and friend them on their Facebook pages or invite them to chat rooms. There are so many more issues that face families and kids today and while Scouting can't solve all of them, Scouting can help. As the parent of an Eagle Scout I expect that you are well aware. Few things are more powerful than 'shared vision'. We need to share the opportunities and possibilities that Scouting brings to kids, parents, whole families. Thanks for your comments. 

 

Yes, many challenges. A big one ate the unprofessional professionals at National. My big concern is whether parents want a character building program or an after school program.

Barry

[Ojoman]

On 1/18/2023 at 1:56 PM, Eagledad said:

My big concern is whether parents want a character building program or an after school program.

Barry

Hi Barry 

While there are many parents that do want the Character & Citizenship values that are a major part of Scouting, sadly, there are many parents today that are fine with turning over child rearing to the internet as it is easier, cheaper and makes no demands on them. The good news, find the interested parents and cultivate a volunteer spirit in them and with a strong program their kids will bring the other kids that probably need it more with them. 

 

[mrjohns2]

On 1/18/2023 at 10:40 AM, Ojoman said:

There are literally millions of additional youth available to recruit today than in the mid 70's when our membership peaked plus we now can recruit girls at all levels and Cubs starts at grade k instead of grade 3.

Girls have doubled the number of children that can be recruited. The number of teens in the US vs. the 1970s is flat to less. Yes, I was surprised too. Changing demographics of number of children and adults of child bearing age. So, I looked at 2019 12-17 year olds being 25 million. 1972 25 million. No change.

POP1 Child population: Number of children (in millions) ages 0–17 in the United States by age, 1950–2021 and projected 2022–2050 (childstats.gov)

[cmd]

On 1/17/2023 at 11:45 PM, HashTagScouts said:

MBCs especially should have nothing to do with the Cub program.

A MBC might also be a cub parent. I agree that it wouldn't be right to have a den leader or pack committee member claiming that their MBC registration covers them, but if their role within the pack is just as parent, I think it would be reasonable to count them as a second registered adult in a pinch.  MBC have to go through the background check and fulfill ypt requirements - same as Unit Scouter Reserve which does count. 

[Ojoman]

12 minutes ago, cmd said:

A MBC might also be a cub parent. I agree that it wouldn't be right to have a den leader or pack committee member claiming that their MBC registration covers them, but if their role within the pack is just as parent, I think it would be reasonable to count them as a second registered adult in a pinch.  MBC have to go through the background check and fulfill ypt requirements - same as Unit Scouter Reserve which does count. 

With all the expenses facing parents to have to come up with a local and national registration fee that can in some councils be north of $80 a year just to be the 2nd adult at a meeting or activity can be a real burden. I all in favor of anything that gives young families a break. and if you are talking both parents we are now over $160. If a parent can get the background check and YPT done via the MB registration and improve opportunities for Scouts to have access to a counselor then that is a win/win in my book. 

 

[cmd]

On 1/18/2023 at 1:56 PM, Eagledad said:

My big concern is whether parents want a character building program or an after school program.

I don't think those two are mutually exclusive, and I think that if we could entice parents into signing their kids up for a character building opportunity by offering it as an afterschool program, that would be worthwhile in its own way.  Everyone benefits when we build character among the next generation. 

With the exception of urban Scoutreach programs, though, that's not something that can happen under the BSA name.  That's actually one of the big reasons that we see families choosing girl scouts for their daughters.  The girls just stay after school one day a week and get picked up when they're done, or if they're enrolled in wraparound care at school, then they head back there at the end of the meeting.  One side effect of this that benefits us is that those girls who do join our pack typically have parents who want to be involved and don't need their arms twisted to help out - if they didn't want to be involved, they had an option that didn't require it.

Note that I'm not advocating for cub scouts to be run this way.  I personally need the connection to other parents that participating in the pack has provided me.  Getting the whole family camping is amazing.  Just saying that there's nothing wrong with some parents wanting a different option

.  I wonder if the BSA has ever considered licensing their program to after school care providers.  So many working parents just don't feel they have enough time to add cub scouts to their schedule, but if den meetings were at school and they just had to plan on one evening pack meeting and one weekend activity a month, they could probably do that.  And the after-school team has already been vetted by the school and covered under their own insurance.  Hmm.  An untapped revenue stream maybe?