Why did BSA make Cub Scouting more expensive?

[mrjohns2]

19 hours ago, 5thGenTexan said:

We might have had Tigers in our Pack, but I was in 3rd or 4th grade and I didnt know about it.  Or probably care

It is funny how long it takes (or took me, at least) to "see" beyond one's own group. I remember once I was a Wolf, there were a bunch of dens (10 or so). I couldn't tell you how much of each or what others. I know I was in Den 1 because we had a cheer of "we're number 1" and we had foam hands cut from carpeting foam. 

[SSScout]

Ho kay, let's dig out the history....  One blue shirt, Blue trousers (if you could afford them), One Blue and Yellow cap, One yellow necker, One metal slide/woggle.  Your Den was your neighborhood friends from school. Number stayed with you thru Cub Scouts.  Somebody's mom was the Den Mother (badge/patch read that).  

Bobcat (beginning for ANY Cub Scout , no matter when they joined).

Wolf  Second grade

Bear  third?

Lion   fourth....

Webelos   fifth....   

THEN into Boy Scouts....  Earn Tenderfoot and you're off....

[mrjohns2]

31 minutes ago, SSScout said:

One blue shirt, Blue trousers (if you could afford them), One Blue and Yellow cap, One yellow necker, One metal slide/woggle.  Your Den was your neighborhood friends from school. Number stayed with you thru Cub Scouts.  Somebody's mom was the Den Mother (badge/patch read that).  

My mom was the den leader. All of the cubs in my den were from my same school. It was 4 blocks from my house. We would walk home together (without adults!). Dues were collected in a coffee can. I think it was 50 cents a meeting. I had a pair of pants, but I only wore them to pack meetings. No one else had pants. My dad was an electrician, and at the time, my mom was a stay at home mom. So, we weren't wealthy, but my dad found them important. It may have been that he couldn't afford them as a Cub, so he wanted me to have them. 

Man, I feel like a grandpa, but I am only 44!

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, SSScout said:

Ho kay, let's dig out the history....  One blue shirt, Blue trousers (if you could afford them), One Blue and Yellow cap, One yellow necker, One metal slide/woggle.  Your Den was your neighborhood friends from school. Number stayed with you thru Cub Scouts.  Somebody's mom was the Den Mother (badge/patch read that).  

Bobcat (beginning for ANY Cub Scout , no matter when they joined).

Wolf  Second grade

Bear  third?

Lion   fourth....

Webelos   fifth....   

THEN into Boy Scouts....  Earn Tenderfoot and you're off....

According to my old books, Wolf was 3rd grade, Bear was 4th Grade,  Lion was 5th with Webelos being earned at the end of the year and you crossed over.

[SSScout]

15 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

According to my old books, Wolf was 3rd grade, Bear was 4th Grade,  Lion was 5th with Webelos being earned at the end of the year and you crossed over.

I think you may be right.   Lion was the highest Cub rank, and Webelos was an "exit" award. You were ready for Boy Scouts, so Lions would be 11 years old into Webelos.....

Arrow award  (not of Light yet, ) was the sealing of the Cub program.

Gadfry, that was a long time ago.......

 

Edited August 25, 2021 by SSScout

[Armymutt]

On 8/24/2021 at 8:38 PM, SSScout said:

Ho kay, let's dig out the history....  One blue shirt, Blue trousers (if you could afford them), One Blue and Yellow cap, One yellow necker, One metal slide/woggle.  Your Den was your neighborhood friends from school. Number stayed with you thru Cub Scouts.  Somebody's mom was the Den Mother (badge/patch read that).  

Bobcat (beginning for ANY Cub Scout , no matter when they joined).

Wolf  Second grade

Bear  third?

Lion   fourth....

Webelos   fifth....   

THEN into Boy Scouts....  Earn Tenderfoot and you're off....

That was my experience circa '82.  I was really confused by the changes when we returned almost 40 years later.  Dens by grade rather than by geography?  No more arrow points?  What about the little plastic thing with beads hanging from your right pocket?  Our pack does keep the same den number as the kids progress, but no one sews it on their shirt.  They already have an identifying feature - all the same grade.  

[SSScout]

13 hours ago, Armymutt said:

That was my experience circa '82.  I was really confused by the changes when we returned almost 40 years later.  Dens by grade rather than by geography?  No more arrow points?  What about the little plastic thing with beads hanging from your right pocket?  Our pack does keep the same den number as the kids progress, but no one sews it on their shirt.  They already have an identifying feature - all the same grade.  

Oh, we were all in the same grade, but neighborhood, our families knew each other. Of course, "neighborhood" meant something different back then, country, farms, etc. separated us alot, but my first Den Mother was right across the road from us.   But back in MY paleoScout days, ( I did the math.... Webelos in 1959. ) we had no beads.  You earned the rank patch as soon as you could and then pursued the "elective" Arrow Points for various projects. All those little Arrow patches to sew on. My mom made me sit down and watch as she did it.  Bobcat was a pin , earned for learning the Cub Promise and Law of the Pack, salute, handshake (two fingers!) etc.  and THEN you went on to the ranks,  Kids joined thru any grade,  I remember some felt bad they couldn't earn the Wolf or Bear, but they joined late in life (!).  At least one of these late joiners got his Eagle, much later....  

I do think that the BSA changed things, pretty much "because we can"....   Bobcat, Wolf, Bear, Lion,  Webelos.....   Seemed a natural gradation of animal.     What is Lion, Tiger, Wolf, Bear?   

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 9/5/2021 at 8:37 AM, SSScout said:

What is Lion, Tiger, Wolf, Bear?   

And there are no lions in The Jungle Book.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

And there are no lions in The Jungle Book.

Maybe we should modernize a bit and use The Lion King instead.  I have a group of boys I would nominate for the hyenas. 

 

[fred8033]

On 8/23/2021 at 3:41 PM, 5thGenTexan said:

When I was a Cub Scout... I started as a Wolf and I am fairly certain that was THE place to start then. ...

WARNING!   Warning!   Tangent !!!

I really wish the program went back to that.  Younger siblings can be friends of the pack, but Lions and Tigers are killing the cub program.  

Edited September 6, 2021 by fred8033

[Jameson76]

3 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

WARNING!   Warning!   Tangent !!!

I really wish the program went back to that.  Younger siblings can be friends of the pack, but Lions and Tigers are killing have killed the cub program.  

I fixed that for you

Lions and Tigers...oh my

 

[fred8033]

On 8/23/2021 at 6:08 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

Fall 1982 Was when  Tiger Cubs was introduced nationally, but it was an optional, separate program for second graders. They only wore an orange tshirt or sweatshirt, and they got iron on tiger paws. Cub Scouts was only 3 years: 3rd grade Wolves, 4th Grade Bears, and 5th Grade Webelos. Some time in the late 1980s, I think 1989, Tiger Cubs became part of Cub Scouts officially. In the 1990s, they turned Cub Scouts from a 4 year program (Grades 2-5), to a 5 year program ( Grade 1-5) because they realized 9-12 months was not enough time to transition. Then circa 2018 Lions came about.

 

 

Interesting ... I somehow always thought of wolves as starting in 2nd grade.  The late 1980s saw the transition from 3rd grade to 2nd grade.  IMHO, this was the start of a bad path causing scouting to look like a little kids program.  

[Armymutt]

58 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

I fixed that for you

Lions and Tigers...oh my

 

 

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

WARNING!   Warning!   Tangent !!!

I really wish the program went back to that.  Younger siblings can be friends of the pack, but Lions and Tigers are killing the cub program.  

 

How so?  

[fred8033]

On 8/25/2021 at 12:28 PM, SSScout said:

I think you may be right.   Lion was the highest Cub rank, and Webelos was an "exit" award. You were ready for Boy Scouts, so Lions would be 11 years old into Webelos.....

Arrow award  (not of Light yet, ) was the sealing of the Cub program.

Gadfry, that was a long time ago.......

 

And that's what makes "WeBeLos" make sense. Wolf Bear Lion as the ranks and Webelos as the exit award.  

IMHO, this would have been better.  4th / 5th graders see cubs too much as a little kid program.  It's lost it's cool.  It's lost the little brother to the big boy troop program.  

[fred8033]

19 minutes ago, Armymutt said:

 

 

How so?  

There was a coolness about joining scouts back when I was a kid.  I was not a scout back then ... but it was cool.  The derby races.  The bow and arrow.  The knives.  The fire.  etc, etc.  Cubs was the beginning of manhood ... best called adulthood now.   ...  Even though mom's were the den mothers, dads got to do cool things with their boys.   It's different with Kindergarden and 1st graders.  They don't have the maturity or the beginning of independence to just hang with their friends like they start to do in 3rd grade.  And, I doubt you wanted to give Kindergarden / first grade boys knives, matches, etc. 

Most importantly ... you viewed yourself as a little brother to a troop where the boys ran the show.  You were immitating that older boy independence program.  

Now, by the time you're 3rd / 4th grade, you've been building pinewood derby cars since kindergarden.  All the cool things are old.  

Worst of all, cubs is now five / six years long.  It's repetitive and gets boring.  Worse, it's more and more work for the adults as you move the program to younger and younger ages.  3rd / 4th graders you can let entertain each other.  kindergarden and 1st graders need constant adult interaction.  

I've been in scouts now 20+ years, but I really believe scouts would have been better left starting in 2nd or 3rd grade.  I have seen my four sons thru each earning eagle.  I would have absolutely been fine ... I would have preferred they started in 3rd grade.  IMHO, I would have been fine if Kindergarden and first grade the boys were home a bit more before we got involved in the extra work of those early years.  Worse, each one got pretty burnt out with scouting by the 4th / 5th grades.  Three years was enough.  

Edited September 6, 2021 by fred8033