Why did BSA make Cub Scouting more expensive?

[InquisitiveScouter]

Just now, MattR said:

Looking at it from the other side I'm not surprised. They don't have the numbers so, rather than adjust their budget they charge CITs. Summer camp itself is already North of $450.

This is why we put on our own summer camp. And the price was very close to $100 per scout and adults paid nothing. That has its own cost, in time, but it was fun.

We did our own Summer Camp in 2020 (COVID).  31 Scouts in 6 Patrols; 11 adults.  Scouts did shopping in three stages for the week, for cooking requirements thru First Class, or Cooking merit badge, whichever they needed.  Each Patrol had an SPL/ASPL or adult guest for each meal. (Rotated for each meal.)  We had great fun just doing activities... tubing, fishing, canoeing, swimming, exploring, etc.  Scouts said one of the things they enjoyed the most was time to just  hang out with the other members of their Patrol.  (Each had their own campsite.)  We offered Wilderness Survival, Mammal Study, Environmental Science, and Fishing.  Older Scouts taught Totin' Chip and Firem'n Chit to our First Year Scouts.  I then guided some older Scouts through Paul Bunyan.  Also offered CPR/AED training.

They had great fun while accomplishing so much during that trip.  The adults were amazed at how we could pull this off ourselves, with minimal planning and effort.  And we did it for $238.20 a head.  Our biggest expense was for renting the entire campground for the week.  (We had the place entirely to ourselves.)

"A week of camp life is worth six months of theoretical teaching in the meeting room."

Yet, when offered to do it again, the PLC declined.  The majority would rather go to a Summer Camp where all the work is done for you (planning, scheduling, setting up camp, shopping, cooking, and dishes, etc.), and you are given a bunch of badges for sitting around a picnic table listening to someone talk.

Our modern council-run Summer Camps are not the ideal unit experience.  They are not "A week of camp life..."; they are a rustic "country-club" experience.  IMO, of course...

 

 

[BetterWithCheddar]

2 hours ago, cmd said:

It's hard to find a job as a 14 or 15 year old, so they're likely not giving up much in the way of other employment.

I bet this varies largely by region. Around the Great Lakes, there tends to be more seasonal opportunities for teenagers because tourism spikes with the comfortable summer weather.

 

2 hours ago, cmd said:

When I worked at girl scout camp back in the 90s, CITs had to pay something and managing them was nearly as much work as the campers.

Again, this probably varies largely by experience, but the vast majority of CITs were a net positive to the camp staff. I only recall one pair of boys (twins) who were a handful. Their parents probably laughed all the way home when they dropped them off at camp for the summer. The average 14-year-old scout may not be ready to guide a troop through check-in or instruct a merit badge, but they are well-suited to help with these tasks.

[SiouxRanger]

3 minutes ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

Their parents probably laughed all the way home when they dropped them off at camp for the summer.

A very long time ago, a "handful" CIT was dropped off at camp and the parents went to Europe! Had to track down relatives to pick the scout up.

[BetterWithCheddar]

1 hour ago, Delphinus said:

Wow! It's one thing to ask them to volunteer and provide free labor, but to charge them on top of that. Good luck getting teenagers to forego their summer vacations for that! The summer camp we went to in July did a great job, but they were understaffed by about 15 people. This will only make it much much worse.

It's unfortunate that the trade-off for teenagers staffing council camps has grown over the past 20-30 years.

Years ago, a staffer's only tradeoffs may have been a few weeks of socializing with their high school friends and maybe their troop's high adventure trip. Today, we're asking them to give up those things, plus:

• Academic Progress
• Roster Spots or Playing Time in High School Athletics
• And now their Parents' Savings

[BetterWithCheddar]

1 hour ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Our modern council-run Summer Camps are not the ideal unit experience.  They are not "A week of camp life..."; they are a rustic "country-club" experience.  IMO, of course...

Very true, but they still get kids outdoors. The average parent (me included) loves flush toilets and structure. They're more inclined to bring their kids to camp when these two needs are met.

More Flush Toilets + More Program Structure = More Kids at Camp

Edited August 13, 2023 by BetterWithCheddar

[SiouxRanger]

My son got a CIT position at the local camp.

Now, to my feeble mind, that means, "Counselor In Training." Menial work hired out in the past.

He worked in the kitchen for two weeks, all day. No "counselor," no "training." He hated it.

He never went back to a camp staff position.

I don't blame him.

My hopes that he'd have the benefit of the local camp staff experience and the Philmont staff experience I had were shattered.

That was an enlightening event. Scouting could not be trusted. Had I an inkling that he would not have actually been a Counselor In Training, but sent to the kitchen, I never would have signed him up.

My local camp staff and Philmont staff experiences were the best thing that ever happened to me and changed my life.

Edited August 13, 2023 by SiouxRanger
ADDED: Menial work...

[cmd]

15 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

My son got a CIT position at the local camp.

Now, to my feeble mind, that means, "Counselor In Training."

He worked in the kitchen for two weeks, all day. No "counselor," no "training." He hated it.

That's not okay.  I hope you complained.  Loudly! 

The issue with CITs wasn't so much that they were a handful, but that they were clueless.  Our regular staff showed up for a week of training, then you would get 6 weeks of work out of them and hopefully they'd be back as seasoned counselors for years to come. 

The CITs spent a chunk of their day in group training, then needed a lot of direction for any tasks you wanted them to take on.  By the end of week 2, they were finally starting to be a net benefit to the counselors they were paired with... then they were gone. 

I know that our BSA camp does sometimes offer a CIT the chance to stay on as paid staff for the rest of the summer.  Or, at least, they did last year. 

[BetterWithCheddar]

32 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

My son got a CIT position at the local camp.

Now, to my feeble mind, that means, "Counselor In Training." Menial work hired out in the past.

He worked in the kitchen for two weeks, all day. No "counselor," no "training." He hated it.

He never went back to a camp staff position.

That is really disappointing to hear. I'm sorry that was his staff experience.

[Eagle94-A1]

I worked at Scout camps in the USA from 1996 to 2001. CITs never had to pay. I know at one of the camps, they attended staff week with the rest of the paid staff. They were full fledged staff members with staff t-shirts, hats, polos, and dominoes (local staff emblem). They never had to pay to play. They helped  the MBCs, and in a few cases were teaching classes. I remember a few were working in First Year Camping teaching basic T-2-1 skills with the retired Marine. I know we had some in the trading post, but they knew before they came to staff week they were going there. And for the last week, when it was slowest and were not needed as much, they did the HA program at the camp as a thank you. We took care of our CITs because we depended on them so much.

 

Sorry cannot remember the second camp I worked at, but want to say they did as well.

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

9 hours ago, BetterWithCheddar said:

The average parent (me included) loves flush toilets and structure.

Perhaps I'm not the average parent, but I'm signing my child up for scouts explicitly expecting some actual camp life at a camp site with 100% nature and 0% amenities. If there's running water it's cheating. And if you never get the chance to fail at charting your own course, you never really get to know yourself or the value of avoiding procrastination.

When I realized cub scout safety guidelines require us to never stray far from civilization, I thought ok, they're still young and vary in commitment to backpacking, I get it. But older scouts in the proper program? They should know where and how to dig a latrine off the top of their heads. They should know how to cook outside in bad weather and how to stay warm and how to amuse and organize themselves. That's the whole point. And the relief! Finally somewhere where you really get to be in charge.

This whole sleeping in cabins thing can be had in lots of places. Real adventures are what scouting offers that not a lot of other organizations do.

I seem to be in the minority in this view since both BSA and GSUSA are heavily into cabins and amenities. But in my heart, scouting is wild and free. The kind of free you feel when the wind tussles your hair and the sun kisses your very cold cheek.

[InquisitiveScouter]

12 hours ago, AwakeEnergyScouter said:

I seem to be in the minority in this view since both BSA and GSUSA are heavily into cabins and amenities. But in my heart, scouting is wild and free.

Most people never experience what you are referring to in your post.

They will forever remain "In Search of Scouting."

I just finished a 6-day river trek, with 10 Scouts and three other adults, in two crews.  All Scouts earned their 50-miler award (the 10 hours of service is actually the most difficult part...)  The older Scouts also did the Kodiak Leadership Challenge. 

Each night, we camped on an island in the river.  A few had pit toilets. Even then, Scouts preferred to dig and use their own catholes. 😛

We brought a good deal of fresh water, but for meals (since we had to boil it anyway) we boiled water from the river. 

In two weeks, we will do a 5-day backpacking trek, where the Scouts will go through the Leave No Trace Trainer curriculum.  Only one night will we camp in an established campground.  The rest will be pristine sites where they must put into practice what they are learning.

And both of these trips will cost less than half the Council Summer Camp fee.

These are "The pinnacle of Scouting experiences..."

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/Passport_to_HighAdventure_34245(16).pdf

Enjoy!

 

[AwakeEnergyScouter]

@InquisitiveScouter Now that's proper scouting! Bravo! That's what every scout should get to experience. And as you note, it can be done much more cheaply than maintaining anything that contains a flushing toilet. You need good gear, which costs money, often a fair bit for performance ultralight stuff. But you don't need the kind of infrastructure that leads to the camp fees and - back to topic - the participation fees.

In fact, it seems to me that all this stuff that the BSA owns is dragging it down. The stuff that paid professionals manage without a lot of transparency. There seems to be a lot of overhead, which leads to this cub scout cost problem among other problems.

You can't experience that freedom while loaded down with stuff and attachment to that stuff. Probably US Americans don't know Snufkin from Moominvalley, but I always think of him when I think of that freedom. He doesn't have much and doesn't want more.

🎶 I listen to the song of the wind it has no name

I listen to the song of the wind it has no words

I listen to the song of the wind and I can see:

The wind is free. 

The wind is free.

 

I listen to the song of the wind it has no name

I listen to the song of the wind it has no words

I listen to the song of the wind and I can see:

We are the wind,

And we are free. 🎶

 

[BetterWithCheddar]

My wife and I are in our late 30s. Our one and only child is in 1st grade. He started Cub Scouts last year and I've enjoyed connecting with many of you virtually as I've gotten re-acquainted with Scouting. My son has also been sampling sports at the YMCA for 2 years and they've been great - low cost, low commitment, emphasis on fun and participation, etc. (highly recommend to parents with young kids).

This year, he's old enough to participate in the local youth basketball program. They require $200 in program fees, $200 in apparel / equipment fees, and parents to volunteer a certain number of hours - all for elementary school kids. No one seems to be phased by this (myself included). We've all accepted this as natural. 

There will be over 50 kids in my son's grade who go out for basketball (large, suburban district), yet only 5 or 6 for Cub Scouts. It really makes you wonder how one program can be so successful, while another struggles to maintain membership (our Pack is at 40 Scouts ... which is pretty good but probably should be larger for our area).

 Something to ponder. 🙂

Our household should be able to balance basketball and Scouts (even as the basketball commitment increases), but that's pretty much all our son will be able to do moving forward (and he's 6). It helps that: 1) I'm his Den Leader and have some control over the Scout schedule; 2) he's our only child and we have two parents to shuttle him around; and 3) we make a decent enough living where the cost isn't a huge obstacle.

[mrjohns2]

@BetterWithCheddarThanks for sharing. Very helpful comparison. 

[PACAN]

@BetterWithCheddar  require  " parents to volunteer a certain number of hours"    

Sounds better than why one reason Packs and Troops go out of business  - We are in a drop and run game.