Why did BSA make Cub Scouting more expensive?

[cmd]

18 minutes ago, Ojoman said:

With all the expenses facing parents to have to come up with a local and national registration fee that can in some councils be north of $80 a year just to be the 2nd adult at a meeting or activity can be a real burden. I all in favor of anything that gives young families a break. and if you are talking both parents we are now over $160. If a parent can get the background check and YPT done via the MB registration and improve opportunities for Scouts to have access to a counselor then that is a win/win 

I would really love to know what the incremental cost to council/national is to add another adult. 

There's the background check - do they repeat that annually?  I doubt it.  

Insurance - Insurance to cover physical harm to the adults makes sense to be per-adult, but if it's to protect against abuse lawsuits, more adults doesn't mean more opportunity for abuse to happen. 

Training - more adults does mean more training, but it seems like most of the cost of that would be development and that doubling the number of people who access it would be a relatively small increase in cost.  Yes, there may be royalty/licensing fees that have to be paid per user, but at the numbers we're talking about, I would hope they've negotiated a low per-user rate.  Actually scratch that - the only training required to register is YPT and all parents are already encouraged to create an account and complete that course, so any expenses there are already being covered. 

In-person training generally has a cost associated with it, at least in my council.  Again, we had to pay someone to develop the curriculum, but delivering it to more people is just using our resources well.

What other costs need to be covered to justify the registration fee? 

When my scout was a cub, I envisioned MBCs as being experts in the field who generously agreed to mentor scouts.  Covering the fee to get them set up to help us with no benefit to them or their family seemed like the least we could do.  But it seems like most MBC are just parents who say "sure - I can read up on that and figure it out."  Even if they do really serve as MBC for kids in other troops, it's not clear to me why that merits a free registration but managing the district popcorn or leading the cub breakout session at the monthly district roundtable doesn't. I think we need to get back to a $20ish adult fee and get all the adults registered. Give council a budget for waiving the $20 fee for MBCs they specifically want to recruit.  If that relationship goes well, the MBC will likely be agreeable to a FoS gift that will more than cover that.

[qwazse]

On 1/29/2023 at 1:29 PM, cmd said:

… Insurance - Insurance to cover physical harm to the adults makes sense to be per-adult, but if it's to protect against abuse lawsuits, more adults doesn't mean more opportunity for abuse to happen. …

You just hit on the solution. BSA’s liability (past and future) is a very large fixed cost. Lower membership equals higher cost per member. Increase membership, and costs will lower. However, the training mandates have drastically driven down adult membership.

Background checks of MBCs is fairly new. Even asking them to take YPT is a hurdle. If Cub parents would be willing and able counselors, we’d welcome them.

[cmd]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

However, the training mandates have drastically driven down adult membership.

We actually have seen the opposite - membership requirement to attend summer camp and no training requirement except YPT to be Unit Scouter Reserve status has resulted in our troop having nearly as many adults registered as youth.  Since we traditionally cover the adults out of the troop/pack budget, that's a lot more fundraising we need to cover.   I know the "easy" answer to this is to expect parents who aren't actually helping to lead the pack to pay for their own membership, but cub summer camp is already a tough sell for those who aren't as invested in the program, and it's really set up with the assumption that kids are bringing a parent along.  We also worry that it would encourage an attitude of "I paid extra so that I wouldn't have to help out."   

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

You just hit on the solution. BSA’s liability (past and future) is a very large fixed cost. Lower membership equals higher cost per member. Increase membership, and costs will lower. However, the training mandates have drastically driven down adult membership.

National change the Tiger program in 2020 to require each scout have an attending parent with them at every activity. Up to that point, Tiger membership dropouts was bad, I think around 50% nationally, give or take. I don’t know what National was thinking, but requiring a parent at every activity made the problem worse.

Parents of 1st grade parents are bombarded with after school activities and it overwhelms them. They only have so much time in a day to work, cook, and be family. Those parents need a very easy program that fits the schedule and gives them an introduction to scouting. 

The real problem was forcing toddler age scouts to weekly meetings that wasn’t worth the time of Tiger families. Our pack experimented with different approaches and found one den meeting a month and an optional Pack meeting was satisfactory. Our Tiger membership dropout rate went from 30 % to 3%. Of course we did a few other things to make Tigers easier for the parents as well, but the fewer meetings made the program more appealing during recruitment.

Who knows what the folks at National were thinking when they come up with these changes, but they sure weren’t talking to the parents. I sent letters to National of our success with Tigers along with the other issues that Tigers still presences to the larger program. And yet, program changes go in the opposite direction. Two packs in our district dropped Tigers all together and didn’t drop in membership.

We found that the Tigers program required double the adults of the rest of the pack to have a successful Tiger program. Dropping Tigers was a nobrainer to save from burnout. 

There is a very simple approach we used to fix the problems the published program created. Ask the parents what they wanted and give it to them. The simple fact is that when the parents leave the program, they take their kids with them.

Barry

[Sentinel947]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

We found that the Tigers program required double the adults of the rest of the pack to have a successful Tiger program. Dropping Tigers was a nobrainer to save from burnout. 

There is a very simple approach we used to fix the problems the published program created. Ask the parents what they wanted and give it to them. The simple fact is that when the parents leave the program, they take their kids with them.

Barry

Then National doubled down with Lions right?

[KublaiKen]

By 2030 we should be seeing in utero trips to the fire station.

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, Sentinel947 said:

Then National doubled down with Lions right?

No, 2000 was when they required parents attend and have meetings every week. Lions was somewhere around 15 years later when National was also adding other clueless program modifications like adding Leadership as a 4th Method when it was already part of the 8 Aims.

Barry

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 hour ago, KublaiKen said:

By 2030 we should be seeing in utero trips to the fire station.

Putting bling on their uniforms is gonna be tough!

[qwazse]

On 1/31/2023 at 2:24 PM, InquisitiveScouter said:

Putting bling on their uniforms is gonna be tough!

For reasons other than what you’re thinking. We’re no longer allowed to award bobcat (or any other pin, I presume) while  the scout is upside down. Good luck trying to get junior to rotate head-up before his/her birthday!

Edited February 2, 2023 by qwazse

[InquisitiveScouter]

5 minutes ago, qwazse said:

For reasons other than what you’re thinking. We’re no longer allowed to award bobcat (or any other pin, I presume) while  the scout is upside down. Good luck trying to get junior to rotate head-up before his/her birthday!

Could Mom stand on her head??

[cmd]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

We’re no longer allowed to award bobcat (or any other pin, I presume) while  the scout is upside down. Good luck trying to get junior to rotate head-up before his/her birthday!

Not a problem.  Lions don't earn bobcat, so presumably, neither would younger scouts.  Planning ahead, maybe?

[Eagle1993]

I went back and hid the comment along with the back and forth as it distracted from the original discussion.  

[mrjohns2]

On 1/29/2023 at 12:29 PM, cmd said:

I would really love to know what the incremental cost to council/national is to add another adult. 

It would help a lot when explaining it to families. I just registered with USA Archery to eventually become a Level 2 Instructor. $35 for a background check (this $17.50 every 2 years). Their Youth Protection is every year and was more clicking and longer (90 mins?). Registration was $135/3 years, so $55/year. So. 72.50/year. 
 

Their training site seemed more polished. 

[cmd]

44 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I just registered with USA Archery to eventually become a Level 2 Instructor. $35 for a background check (this $17.50 every 2 years). Their Youth Protection is every year and was more clicking and longer (90 mins?). Registration was $135/3 years, so $55/year. So. 72.50/year. 
 

Their training site seemed more polished. 

Is ours less than 90 minutes these days?  It seems so much longer. I thought it was more like 2 hrs.

I've been told that a switch to annual is coming for us, too. I don't mind doing some sort of ypt annually, but it would be nice if it weren't the SAME ypt every year.  Maybe have a long initial one with shorter refreshers annually? Then do the full one again the next time it's updated. 

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, cmd said:

but it would be nice if it weren't the SAME ypt every year.  Maybe have a long initial one with shorter refreshers annually? Then do the full one again the next time it's updated. 

Great idea. Or start with a precourse test to check your knowledge. 70% rewards you by skipping the course.

Barry