CynicalScouter Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 48 minutes ago, RandomScouter said: What is supposed to be disclosed at the upcoming disclosure hearing and why is it such a Big Deal? This gives a good overview https://www.uscourts.gov/services-forms/bankruptcy/bankruptcy-basics/chapter-11-bankruptcy-basics Quote Generally, a written disclosure statement and a plan of reorganization must be filed with the court. 11 U.S.C. §§ 1121, 1125. The disclosure statement is a document that must contain information concerning the assets, liabilities, and business affairs of the debtor sufficient to enable a creditor to make an informed judgment about the debtor's plan of reorganization. 11 U.S.C. § 1125. The information required is governed by judicial discretion and the circumstances of the case. The contents of the plan must include a classification of claims and must specify how each class of claims will be treated under the plan. 11 U.S.C. § 1123. Creditors whose claims are "impaired," i.e., those whose contractual rights are to be modified or who will be paid less than the full value of their claims under the plan, vote on the plan by ballot. 11 U.S.C. § 1126. After the disclosure statement is approved by the court and the ballots are collected and tallied, the court will conduct a confirmation hearing to determine whether to confirm the plan. 11 U.S.C. § 1128. So, this disclosure hearing is going to look at about a dozen documents: 1) The disclosure statement. Does BSA give enough information, and more importantly enough ACCURATE AND DETAILED information, for the court and claimants/voters to gauge what BSA's current status is, what all the assets and debts really are, what all the claims are. Etc. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/ee5156a3-0c08-4833-a600-8256c44c8a56_5485.pdf 2) The reorganization plan. Here BSA lays out in graphic gory detail, exactly how it will pay off everything and everyone and what it will look like post-bankruptcy. You'll see references to BSA and "Reorganized BSA". BSA is the entity that goes into the bankruptcy, "Reorganized BSA" is what comes out. Don't worry, the name "Boy Scouts of America" will remain the same, but if the document kept referring to "Boy Scouts of America" it gets confusing whether you are talking about the entity BEFORE the bankruptcy release and AFTER. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/1ec7e1fa-b4a3-43e4-aca0-6539d0b659e2_5484.pdf Now, BSA originally filed these as TWO separate documents back in February 2020. They have filed their latest AMENDED version (Plan 4.0) as two separate documents AND as one big mega-document. The mega-version is called a "Red-line": you can see all the changes and amendments they made recently. That mega-document is here https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/7082572a-2eeb-4a35-bc9b-e515925846fd_5486.pdf 3) The Solicitation Package: the sexual abuse claimants are not about to go through 500+ pages of plan and disclosure statement. Well, they could, but that's not realistic. Instead, what they will get is a package with a) a cover letter telling victims they can access the FULL plan and FULL disclosure statement (as approved by the court) at https://omniagentsolutions.com/bsa-SAballots orhttps://omniagentsolutions.com/bsa-ballots, They MAY get the full 500 pages, that is to be determined. b) a notice that they have a right to be heard (through their lawyers) at the confirmation hearing that happens after the vote c) ) the Disclosure Statement with all exhibits, although again this MAY not be the full statement or might instead just be "go see it at https://omniagentsolutions.com/bsa-SAballots or https://omniagentsolutions.com/bsa-ballots" d) the court's order indicating it has approved this process, again might just be "go to https://omniagentsolutions.com/bsa-SAballots or https://omniagentsolutions.com/bsa-ballots" e) the ballot where the victims vote f) statements from proponents of the plan, opponents, both, or neither g) Possibly a "plain language" or "plan English" statement for victims who aren't conversant in legalese. The TCC's proposed statement is https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/a6491a00-9dd7-4d75-8671-2284c1f88c7c_5706.pdf Now, EVERY SINGLE ONE of these items is going to he fought over, tooth and claw, for days if not weeks. Every line, every comma, everything will be fought tooth and claw. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 1 minute ago, CynicalScouter said: every comma Fair warning. I have been granted special dispensation by the court to be a participating party in this process. I am limited to the Comma Committee. Trust me, it will take weeks. I plan to leave no comma misplaced, no comma conspicuous by its absence and no comma that I don’t want just because I don’t like the point being made. JUST KIDDING. I AM NOT ON ANYTHING, other than this stupid, hard, dinky Windsor chair my wife substituted while I’m suffering the two-year wait time on new breakfast table chairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco1821 Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 That's absolutely the LDS' view. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/82a47dab-b75d-43b7-ae01-00b6dc8a17b0_3263.pdf You would think that an organization, especially a “church”, would feel some sort of moral obligation to do whatever they need to do to help victims who were under their care. Regardless if they are forced by the court to do so. Very disappointed in my church 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted August 21, 2021 Share Posted August 21, 2021 (edited) 22 minutes ago, Bronco1821 said: You would think that an organization, especially a “church”, would feel some sort of moral obligation to do whatever they need to do to help victims who were under their care. Regardless if they are forced by the court to do so. Very disappointed in my church LDS is not saying they won't help the victims or have to pay. What they are saying is that, under their understanding of the BSA insurance policies, that LDS is entitled to reimbursement/coverage under BSA's policies. Nowhere does it say victims won't get paid or shouldn't get paid. What it is saying is that BSA agreed (in LDS' view) to make those payments and therefore BSA should not now be able to walk away without honoring that commitment. THEN if LDS still has to pay even more on top of that, that is another conversation. But first, BSA pays. Edited August 21, 2021 by CynicalScouter 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yknot Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 22 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: LDS is not saying they won't help the victims or have to pay. What they are saying is that, under their understanding of the BSA insurance policies, that LDS is entitled to reimbursement/coverage under BSA's policies. Nowhere does it say victims won't get paid or shouldn't get paid. What it is saying is that BSA agreed (in LDS' view) to make those payments and therefore BSA should not now be able to walk away without honoring that commitment. THEN if LDS still has to pay even more on top of that, that is another conversation. But first, BSA pays. Is there any data on number/percent claims by CO denomination or category? I know we've seen it by LC sort of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 (edited) 15 minutes ago, yknot said: Is there any data on number/percent claims by CO denomination or category? I know we've seen it by LC sort of. Sorta, but notice the big giant "Unknown" https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/213bd53f-b44f-45c9-97fc-246bcb7ca06b_4108.pdf Unique and Timely Abuse Claim Count* by Top-20 Most Common Chartered Organizations Chartered Organization Group Unique & Timely Abuse Claim Count** METHODIST CHURCH 3,760 BAPTIST CHURCH 3,157 CATHOLIC CHURCH 3,131 CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS 2,430 PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH 1,611 LUTHERAN CHURCH 1,416 ARMED FORCES*** 607 EPISCOPAL CHURCH 557 AMERICAN LEGION 477 YMCA 435 VFW 369 SALVATION ARMY 242 ELKS LODGE 222 LIONS CLUB 199 BOYS AND GIRLS CLUBS 195 KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS 157 BOYS CLUB 129 KIWANIS CLUB 108 ROTARY CLUB 88 MOOSE LODGE 75 OTHER 20,985 UNKNOWN 36,496 MISSING 5,740 Total 82,586 * The total Abuse Claim count in this table is slightly higher than the total count of unique and timely Abuse Claims to account for claimants that named multiple organizations. ** The abuse claim count listed in this column is based on the claimants’ responses to Part 4.H. on the Sexual Abuse Proof of Claim Form and does not account for references to the Chartered Organization that may be located elsewhere in the proof of claim. The abuse claim count listed above also does not reflect any other analysis conducted by the Debtors to approximate the total number of abuse claims that implicate the Chartered Organization. *** Abuse Claims flagged as "Armed Forces" named one of the following groups: Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard, National Guard, or the generic US Military or US Armed Forces Edited August 22, 2021 by CynicalScouter 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vol_scouter Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 @CynicalScouter Thank you for looking this up. The top six are not quite in the order of historical number of members but is close. At 20,985 other and 36,496 unknown there are 57,481 that are not one of the top 6 Chartered Partners by historical membership numbers. So most cases are not attributed to the top six Chartered Partners that total 15,505 cases (some of the unknown could be one of these but there is no way to estimate). When they finally get accused, these other and unknown entities that can be identified will not be happy to have not having input. Seems like to resolve this case in a reasonable amount of time requires cooperation on all sides. Otherwise, the complexity will drag it out for many years that strains all involved. Hopefully, all will work for the best resolution for all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
yknot Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said: Sorta, but notice the big giant "Unknown" https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/213bd53f-b44f-45c9-97fc-246bcb7ca06b_4108.pdf Unique and Timely Abuse Claim Count* by Top-20 Most Common Chartered Organizations Chartered Organization Group Unique & Timely Abuse Claim Count** METHODIST CHURCH 3,760 BAPTIST CHURCH 3,157 CATHOLIC CHURCH 3,131 CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS 2,430 PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH 1,611 LUTHERAN CHURCH 1,416 ARMED FORCES*** 607 EPISCOPAL CHURCH 557 AMERICAN LEGION 477 YMCA 435 VFW 369 SALVATION ARMY 242 ELKS LODGE 222 LIONS CLUB 199 BOYS AND GIRLS CLUBS 195 KNIGHTS OF COLUMBUS 157 BOYS CLUB 129 KIWANIS CLUB 108 ROTARY CLUB 88 MOOSE LODGE 75 OTHER 20,985 UNKNOWN 36,496 MISSING 5,740 Total 82,586 * The total Abuse Claim count in this table is slightly higher than the total count of unique and timely Abuse Claims to account for claimants that named multiple organizations. ** The abuse claim count listed in this column is based on the claimants’ responses to Part 4.H. on the Sexual Abuse Proof of Claim Form and does not account for references to the Chartered Organization that may be located elsewhere in the proof of claim. The abuse claim count listed above also does not reflect any other analysis conducted by the Debtors to approximate the total number of abuse claims that implicate the Chartered Organization. *** Abuse Claims flagged as "Armed Forces" named one of the following groups: Army, Navy, Marines, Air Force, Coast Guard, National Guard, or the generic US Military or US Armed Forces Thank you very much. Wow unknown and other are kinda large. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fred8033 Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 On 8/19/2021 at 3:51 PM, CynicalScouter said: It has been his wish-becomes-the-reality desire since the start. I don't see a Chapter 7. Moreover, I could see a toggle plan, but with all the LCs having committed to paying, I don't see BSA just dropping/abandoning them at this point. What is Kosnoff's reasoning to expect a chapter 7? Lack of good faith negotiations? The waters are so muddied by all sides on this case and with laws changing even during this process that I'd find it hard to believe a successful "lack of good faith" could be found. (but then again, I'm no lawyer) ... ... Bad future financial picture? We've seen scouting successfully resurrected in England and other countries to great success. If BSA can get past the current bankruptcy and the bad press related (and covid), I'd believe a 110 year old non-profit could successfully continue to function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1980Scouter Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 The one thing I wonder about is the future abuse cases. We all know this will continue to occur if on a much smaller scale. But adding girls especially of the teen aged years I think abuse will continue, even between scouts too. Surely there will be lawsuits especially after this and past lawsuits set that lawsuits are successful. I think if BSA survives it is a matter of time before they are forced out of existence. A few weeks ago there was a assault that occurred at a scout camp in my county. Not sure the details, but the local sheriff was called and it was in the paper. Goes to show this is not an easy issue to solve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 8 hours ago, fred8033 said: What is Kosnoff's reasoning to expect a chapter 7? First, he's wanted a Chapter 7 since the start since he wants BSA dead, so some of this is wishful thinking. Everything else stems from this. Kosnoff wants BSA dead. Second, part of this stems from his view of BSA and the LCs, namely, that the LCs assets should have been considered BSA assets. His argument is that LCs are in effect simply appendages of BSA and upon dissolution LC assets go to BSA. Therefore, Chapter 7 the whole thing to maximize victim recovery. Third, that complexities involved make a Chapter 11 impossible and liquidation is the cleanest way of dealing with this. One of is posts said (paraphrase) there is more pain and suffering than money, therefore throwing a pittance ($200 million) is simply always going to be insulting. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, 1980Scouter said: Surely there will be lawsuits especially after this and past lawsuits set that lawsuits are successful. Yes, there will be. BUT unlike in the past, BSA is in a much better position. Remember: the whole point of these lawsuits and claims is that BSA did nothing or next to nothing to prevent the abuse. They were negligent. Now, however, it is much harder to push such a case (not impossible, just harder) against BSA thanks to YPT, Guide to Safe Scouting, and other things. Moreover, ALL abuse take took place prior to February 2020 is covered in the bankruptcy (it is why the Future Claims Representative exists). Lawsuits will never go away, but it will be harder to demonstrate BSA failed to protect that abused scout. Edited August 22, 2021 by CynicalScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David CO Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 2 hours ago, 1980Scouter said: The one thing I wonder about is the future abuse cases. Yes. That is the great unknown. My guess is there will be a continuous stream of unending lawsuits until BSA finally gives up the ghost. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 If true, and I'd need to see it confirmed, I saw in an FB group that Greater New York Council's contribution to the fund will be $9 million. Bear in mind that this is only speculative rumor, but GNY is a) in an open state b) has the second most claims (Total claims = 1,454, non-time barred = 1,420) of any council. That said, I'm inclined to believe that $9 million number. $9 million sounds like an absolutely pittance, but let's look at their numbers (again according to BSA's data, not the TCC's) and $9 million may be about right. Assets Cash & Equivalents 1,494,300 Land, Buildings, and Equipment 5,630,537 Long-Term Investments 13,729,490 Other Assets 2,598,496 TOTAL ASSETS 23,452,823 Liabilities Debt 1,983,276 Other Liabilities 565,079 TOTAL LIABILITIES 2,548,355 Totals Unrestricted Net Assets 10,041,590 Restricted Net Assets 10,862,878 TOTAL NET ASSETS 20,904,468 Thus $9 million would be about 89.6% of all unrestricted net assets and 43% of total net assets. That's consistent with Grand Canyon, another council with a huge number of claims. (497 of which 475 are timely). Grand Canyon is having to give up 73% of all unrestricted assets and 53% of total net assets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted August 22, 2021 Share Posted August 22, 2021 (edited) One more question that I doubt will go over very well: what happens for councils that pay nothing? In other words, I'm thinking of very small councils with few assets may pay $0. Note that the below is TOTAL assets BEFORE liabilities and BEFORE taking into account restricted vs. unrestricted. Council Total Assets All Unique & Timely Abuse Claims All Not-Barred, Unique & Timely Abuse Claims Alabama-Florida $715,419 57 0 Mobile Area $594,174 110 4 Southern Sierra $700,976 144 141 Inland Northwest $810,065 158 3 Pushmataha Area $695,144 48 2 Gulf Coast $409,791 185 5 Edited August 22, 2021 by CynicalScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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