Chapter 11 Announced - Part 5 - RSA Ruling

[skeptic]

20 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

 

Yup. That’s what I’m talkin’ about, Willis. Now we’re cooking with Hickory!

Okay, so using this premise, and based on the statistical percentages of Scouting compared to other youth serving groups, including governmental agencies, and your nightmare is truly frightening, since Scouting is on the low end of the percentage per capita.  So, what are your thoughts beyond Scouting, which is seemingly NOT the worst problem?

BSA, and now the Catholic Church have admitted to an issue, though the depth of it is fuzzy, and prone to a lot of number playing.  IF the stats are even close, society has a massive problem, and the BSA is not the primary agent.  

Our real problem in this scenario is that actual facts are not easily determined, and that the emotional bias of many will inflate, or deflate dependent on the players.

[ThenNow]

1 minute ago, skeptic said:

So, what are your thoughts beyond Scouting, which is seemingly NOT the worst problem?

As I’ve said, “speck and log.” I’m not talking about or  thinking about anything but BSA for these purpose. Relativity is irrelevant here. I can’t  operate on two patients at once. I’m not a machine, man. Good lord.   😬

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

And one every year after?

For Cubs, it is every year plus your Den can do a “Protect Yourself” adventure instead of Cyber Chip. So, 2x per year. For Scouts, it is at Scout and Tenderfoot. 

[Eagle1970]

The disclosures that have been shown since I made the comment earlier are certainly a step in the right direction.  But when I said they should put it on the brochure "like the warnings on cigarette packs" I really meant it.  In addition, I don't want to be stupid and suggest an awareness merit badge, but the children need to be educated.  I had no idea about what grooming was when my abuse began.  I just thought he was a really nice man who cared about me a whole lot.  Had I been made aware that if a man tries to get too friendly with a boy it may not turn out well and is probably not a good idea, I would have listened.  I had no idea how abuse would progress.  Perhaps mandatory class on abuse awareness and avoidance would be helpful, when joining.  As opposed to destroying much of a child's life, this is worth whatever discomfort that may accompany it.

[skeptic]

42 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

The disclosures that have been shown since I made the comment earlier are certainly a step in the right direction.  But when I said they should put it on the brochure "like the warnings on cigarette packs" I really meant it.  In addition, I don't want to be stupid and suggest an awareness merit badge, but the children need to be educated.  I had no idea about what grooming was when my abuse began.  I just thought he was a really nice man who cared about me a whole lot.  Had I been made aware that if a man tries to get too friendly with a boy it may not turn out well and is probably not a good idea, I would have listened.  I had no idea how abuse would progress.  Perhaps mandatory class on abuse awareness and avoidance would be helpful, when joining.  As opposed to destroying much of a child's life, this is worth whatever discomfort that may accompany it.

What there is also is the, in theory, protection pullout in the handbook.  There is a pretty good likelihood that many parents do not actually cover that with their scout.  That is based on the observation from a collector that many of the books that have them, starting in the nineties or so, still have the pull outs in tact.

I know that I have had scouts tell me their parents and them had not discussed it, though most claim to have seen it.  That is not particularly inspiring of it being used.  Now that I think about it, that might be something to add to leader training.  Try to assure that the scout and parent actually DO review that pullout.

[Eagle1993]

43 minutes ago, skeptic said:

IF the stats are even close, society has a massive problem, and the BSA is not the primary agent.  

I understand the point and I agree there was a broader issue in society.  But right now, BSA is the only organization ever to have anything close to 84,000 claims of sex abuse.   So, if this is a problem everywhere, why doesn’t 4H, Girl Scouts, Big Brothers, YMCA, the Boys Club, etc, have tens of thousands of claims?

The reason is that for decades, the BSA was the best organization to join if you were a pedophile.  It is horrible to think of, but pedophiles figured out if you are a scoutmaster you can go out into the woods with prepubescent boys and get away with your sick fantasies.

BSA knew they had an issue and senior leadership hid it.  It makes me sick as I love the program and believe the vast majority of men donated countless hours and upheld the honor of scouting.  However, the information in the Washington Times articles made it clear.  Senior leaders at BSA knew they had an issue, didn’t want the bad publicity and likely thought not much could be done.  We are here not because of victims nor lawyers nor even a few rough employees.  We are here because BSA national leaders took too long to act to protect kids.  If BSA survives, which I think it will and should, we need to make sure that never happens again. 

[Eagledad]

3 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

 We are here because BSA national leaders took too long to act to protect kids.  If BSA survives, which I think it will and should, we need to make sure that never happens again. 

That’s all quite a reach without hard facts. That being said, what do you propose to make sure it doesn’t happen again?

Barry

[CynicalScouter]

8 hours ago, Eagle1970 said:

Perhaps mandatory class on abuse awareness and avoidance would be helpful, when joining.  As opposed to destroying much of a child's life, this is worth whatever discomfort that may accompany it.

Part of the RSA,the non-monterary relief portion, was focused one having a review of BSA's abuse policies.

It might very well be that the review will in fact recommend that.

"(A) The BSA forms a Child Protection Committee (“Committee”) of members from the BSA, Local Councils, the TCC, and the Coalition (including survivors).

(1) No later than six months after the Effective Date, the BSA will present to the Committee on the BSA’s current Youth Protection Program (the “Program”). The BSA will report to the Committee regarding the Program and any changes thereto on an annual basis for a period of three years following the Effective Date.

(2) Following that presentation, the BSA and Committee will work with an entity engaged by the BSA that is selected with the consultation of the Committee that is not currently affiliated with the BSA to evaluate the Program (the “Evaluating Entity”). The Evaluating Entity will have expertise in the prevention of youth sexual abuse.

(i) Any evaluation will be comprehensive in nature and include input from current BSA volunteers and professionals, survivors of sexual abuse while involved with Scouting, the members of the Committee, and the Evaluating Entity.

(ii) The Evaluating Entity will report to the Committee assessing the current Program and make specific recommendations for reasonable improvements to the Program that may include mechanisms for the elimination of abuse and accurate and annual reporting regarding the results of the Program, including confirmed instances of sexual abuse that is made available to the public (the “Prospective Reporting”).

(iii) The BSA will engage with the Evaluating Entity, and the Committee, and will take appropriate steps as necessary to improve the Program. Changes to the Program will be reported on the BSA’s Program website and training will be reasonably adjusted to reflect changes."

 

[Eagle94-A1]

8 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I understand the point and I agree there was a broader issue in society.  But right now, BSA is the only organization ever to have anything close to 84,000 claims of sex abuse.   So, if this is a problem everywhere, why doesn’t 4H, Girl Scouts, Big Brothers, YMCA, the Boys Club, etc, have tens of thousands of claims? 

Probably because they did not keep any records of abusers and alleged abusers to keep them out of the program. Remember, BSA's CSE at the creation of the IVF, James West, was a lawyer. BSA used the technology and legal standards of the day to try ans keep folks out. I worked for the YMCA,  and never heard of any such policy or practice.

[ThenNow]

38 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Probably because they did not keep any records of abusers and alleged abusers to keep them out of the program

Not poking, just asking. Is the point or argument that BSA is in Chapter 11, driven here by child sexual abuse lawsuits or threatened actions, because of the IVF disclosure? Because they kept the records, though purged who knows how many? I’m trying to clarify. Thanks.

[CynicalScouter]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Probably because they did not keep any records of abusers and alleged abusers to keep them out of the program.

Yep. BSA was unique in that it actively attempted to track/trace this issue. That doesn't mean it was/was not happening in 4H, Girl Scouts, Big Brothers, YMCA, the Boys Club. It just means they had no way of keeping track if it did.

[CynicalScouter]

10 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

I understand the point and I agree there was a broader issue in society.  But right now, BSA is the only organization ever to have anything close to 84,000 claims of sex abuse.   So, if this is a problem everywhere, why doesn’t 4H, Girl Scouts, Big Brothers, YMCA, the Boys Club, etc, have tens of thousands of claims?

One possibility, and ChildUSA's report kinda leaned in on this, is that there is something inherent about Scouting that makes it more susceptible than those other programs and that Scouting by its very nature can never shed child sexual abuse in the way those others programs can (bold in original)

https://childusa.org/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/Analysis-of-Victims-of-Abuse-in-Scouting-Part-1-1.pdf

"It is our main finding that Scouts provided an unsafe environment for children. While the goals of nature exploration and survival skill development are admirable, the structure of Scouting was insufficient at ensuring the safety of children. 78.7% of the abused Scouts in this survey were assaulted at a Scout camp, meeting, or activity. By taking children into nature with only few adults, no oversight, and no child defensible spaces, Scouts exposes children to scenarios which make them situationally weak and vulnerable to abuse from perpetrators. Scouts is mistaken in their belief that teaching a child to build a fire or earn a badge is equivalent to situational strength. In everyday life, children are often physically weak compared to adults. Instead, children rely on safe adults, buildings, and other factors for situational strength, and thus security. In Scouts, children are taken away from safe communities of adults, put in communal spaces like showers and church basements, and brought across state lines far away from their homes. Situational disempowerment seems routine in Scouting, and it creates repeated instances in which children are susceptible to abuse."

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[Eagle1993]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Probably because they did not keep any records of abusers and alleged abusers to keep them out of the program. Remember, BSA's CSE at the creation of the IVF, James West, was a lawyer. BSA used the technology and legal standards of the day to try ans keep folks out. I worked for the YMCA,  and never heard of any such policy or practice.

However, if there were large numbers of men sexually assaulting kids in those programs, we would be seeing large numbers of lawsuits filed now.  The laws are the same for all organizations ... if there were a massive number of sex abuse claims we would be seeing a flood of lawsuits against these other youth serving organizations. We are not.  Why ... because a combination that BSA was attractive to pedophiles and BSA didn't address the problem sufficiently.  From Scout's Honor, 1991:

Quote

"I went to the Boy Scouts and sought some help from them, thinking we could come out of the sand and get our heads together," said Donald Wolff, then a legal consultant to Big Brothers. "We met a brick wall. . . . The Boy Scouts were pretending there was no problem. We knew the Boy Scouts had as big a problem if not bigger than we had."

Also from Scout's Honor, 1991, the chair of BSA's safety committee never received information about sex abuse.

Quote

In a 1987 deposition, committee chairman Dr. Walter Menniger said Scout officials never gave the committee any reports about sex abuse, although they routinely gave the committee tallies for other injuries. He was sure that if sex abuse was a problem in Scouting he would be told about it, he said.

I think we are seeing the results of that today.  The laws are the same for all organizations, but BSA is one of two that declared bankruptcy due to sex abuse lawsuits.  They have 84,000 claims now.  The other, USA Gymnastics, has just over 500.  Neither should be blaming victims or society.  They should admit their own failings, compensate victims and do their best to prevent it from reoccurring.  Too often, this thread seems to venture into blaming laws, society, lawyers and  the claimants.  

I think there is enough evidence through prior lawsuits and investigative journalists that BSA failed to sufficiently protect youth.  BSA decided to abandon future fights in court and declare bankruptcy.  Given that, we need to pay and do our best to protect kids in the future.

[Gilwell_1919]

On 8/27/2021 at 1:49 PM, CynicalScouter said:

THAT clarifies 95% of it. The other 5% is how did AIS get the info from those two people. It wasn't BSA is my point and there's no proof it was BSA.

Sorry for my waaaay late response. Scouting in my house never ends and I had an entire weekend of service projects and council stuff. 

As for your response, yes... yes it does. I really do apologies that my timelines were not being written as clear as they were in my head. 

Overall, I am a scout and just want to make sure I am doing the right thing. What I was reading and hearing didn't add up, so I sought clarity from this group since y'all seem to be in the know. 

[Gilwell_1919]

On 8/27/2021 at 2:13 PM, MYCVAStory said:

Now, did an unknowing SE or DE make a Powerpoint with incorrect information?  Maybe.  Were they directed to do so by National?  There is NO evidence of that and it would be unprecedented and run against ALL of BSA National's actions to this point.   PLEASE tread lightly.  Whether we have your passion for the BSA or not we try to trade in facts here. 

Thank you. I think that may be the case. When I hear, "let me get clarification from national" from an SE... I tend to take that as gospel.  As for my passion for BSA... I will always be a scout... no one can take that away from me. If BSA doesn't make it out of this... I'll file 501(c)3 paperwork, start "Scouts USA" the next day, and then turn it over to the folks in Texas... that is how committed I am to scouting. 🙃