Chapter 11 Announced - Part 5 - RSA Ruling

[ThenNow]

31 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

There is remarkable research by Harvard Med School professors that involved MRI brain scans of adult survivors of sexual abuse that show how the developing brain was altered by the stress hormones. I’ll dig out the article. 

I am happy to link to actual peer reviewed research, too. Maybe we go to another thread, though, based on experience here, most survivors stay here. Lots more bk banter and details. I was trying to give a lay person’s summary from a treatment center. They do that well because they are marketing via getting people to understand both the problems and treatment modalities. 

[yknot]

20 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Because papers have identified that 9.6% of school children are abused by graduation from high school whereas the identified number for the BSA is 130 M / 82,000 = 0.06% [Both numbers are fraught with problems but it shows orders of magnitude differences - even if there are ten times more victims in the BSA, the rate is still just 0.6%].  Sports are being revealed as are other organizations.  The Southern Baptist Convention is dealing with reports of child abuse.  I have colleagues in other youth serving organizations that are bracing for the same kind of lawsuits that the BSA finds itself now embroiled.  

vol_scouter we have repeatedly on this forum debunked the numbers you are using. There is no correlary. There is no apples to apples. For example, any study of school children includes girls, who are abused at four times the rate as boys... in some studies. But the reality is we don't really know much about child sexual abuse. What we do know is that scouting has a problem. What we do know is that it is BSA that is facing bankruptcy. What we do know is that it is BSA that is facing 82,000 claims. Trying to deflect with completely unverifiable statistics elsewhere has no bearing on anything. 

[CynicalScouter]

35 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

whereas the identified number for the BSA is 130 M / 82,000 = 0.06%

Not this again. Holy smokes not this again

First, 130 million is based on pure conjecture to begin with.

Second, the number of claimants is NOT IN ANY WAY a scientific sampling of the number of total abuse cases that occurred in Scouting because it suffers from any one of a half a dozen sampling errors, including but not limited to convenience sampling and self-selection bias.

For the umteempth millionth time, trying to use 82,500 as an indicator of the total amount of ANYTHING is absurd from a sampling/statistics perspective.

ANY Research Methodologist would FLUNK a student who tried to pull this in a Research Methods or Research Statistics class.

PLEASE STOP USING 82,500 AS AN INDICATOR OF TOTAL ABUSE IN SCOUTING.

It is an undercount.

It is a known undercount.

And continuing to use it to absolve BSA or to use it for ANY purpose other than "this is the number of claims filed in this particular bankruptcy" is asinine.

Edited August 29, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[vol_scouter]

4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Not this again. Holy smokes not this again

First, 130 million is based on pure conjecture to begin with.

Second, the number of claimants is NOT IN ANY WAY a scientific sampling of the number of total abuse cases that occurred in Scouting because it suffers from any one of a half a dozen sampling errors, including but not limited to convenience sampling and self-selection bias.

For the umteempth millionth time, trying to use 82,500 as an indicator of the total amount of ANYTHING is absurd from a sampling/statistics perspective.

ANY Research Methodologist would FLUNK a student who tried to pull this in a Research Methods or Research Statistics class.

PLEASE STOP USING 82,500 AS AN INDICATOR OF TOTAL ABUSE IN SCOUTING.

It is an undercount. It is a known undercount. And continuing to use it to absolve BSA or to use it for ANY purpose other than "this is the number of claims filed in this particular bankruptcy" is asinine.

I even used ten times that number and the incidence in Scouting is at least an order of magnitude less than peer reviewed published data on schools.  None is definitive but there will never be a definitive study since all depend on reporting of events that are often suppressed.  Please read the sequence of posts, I am not trying to justify anything other than all youth serving organizations should be scrutinizing everyone who has access to children.  That was disputed but it is true.

 

[JoeBob]

12 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

It is an undercount.

It is a known undercount.

Really?  How do you know?  Where's your proof?  For someone who demands proof, you sorta snatched that out of the ether.

The insurance companies contend that that's an OVERCOUNT fueled by aggressive lawyers advertising on TV.  Why should we credit your point of view?

Thx.

[CynicalScouter]

2 minutes ago, JoeBob said:

Really?  How do you know?  Where's your proof?  For someone who demands proof, you sorta snatched that out of the ether.

For example, at least one claimant has now come forward to try and get his claim filed post-bar date. Meaning his abuse is NOT part of the 82,500 count.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/08d00d9b-f3d7-4e65-b923-2860ee591eaa_6108.pdf

I also personally know, and there are others here who have similarly indicated, they they personally know victim who opted NOT to file a claim for a host of reasons.

In short, we know that

a) 82,500 is the number of unique claims filed and

b) that even that number is an undercount of total claims, much less abuse.

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[vol_scouter]

6 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

In short, we know that

a) 82,500 is the number of unique claims filed and

b) that even that number is an undercount of total claims, much less abuse.

 

We also have evidence that some claims may not be true.  Whether that is one or many has not been answered but those will decrease that number.  Once again, even if there are ten times the number reported, the incidence is less than 1%.  It means that other organizations should be scrutinizing anyone with access to children.

[ThenNow]

18 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

We also have evidence that some claims may not be true.  Whether that is one or many has not been answered but those will decrease that number.  Once again, even if there are ten times the number reported, the incidence is less than 1%.  It means that other organizations should be scrutinizing anyone with access to children.

I respect you, but this continued argument is both irrelevant and echoes the parable of the “speck and the log.” This thread is about the BSA Chapter 11. No one other. That Chapter 11 was and is being driven by the fact of historic, concealed and denied child sexual abuse in BSA. Do other youth-serving organizations deserve to be scrutinized? Of course. Do I care about that right here, right now for the purposes of this discussion? Nope.

”Mom! I know I threw the ball through the garage window, but I think Brother chipped the bathroom sink! You need to look at that!”

”Hey, officer. I know I was going ten over, but did you see that guy two minutes ago in the new Tesla? He had to be going 90+! I bet you can still catch him.”

Relative righteousness is a non-existent state of moral relativism. Comparatively less or equivalent guilt is guilt nonetheless. Let’s just examine the log, while we’re at it.  

Edited August 30, 2021 by ThenNow

[ThenNow]

36 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I also personally know, and there are others here who have similarly indicated, they they personally know victim who opted NOT to file a claim for a host of reasons.

In short, we know that

a) 82,500 is the number of unique claims filed and

b) that even that number is an undercount of total claims, much less abuse.

What is the accepted number of BSA Scouts since inception? 

[vol_scouter]

2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

What is the accepted number of BSA Scouts since inception? 

I have seen where the BSA has said 130 M  and others have used 100 M.

[johnsch322]

3 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Well, there is info in every handbook. It is required to be covered in every cub rank and at least 2x in Scouts. It goes on and on about how abuse happens and how to prevent it.

So, other than putting it on all flyers, it is pretty well covered. 

100-015.pdf (scouting.org)

 

But a disclosure in a handbook would be after the fact of signing up.  How about a disclosure when signing up that had to be signed by the parent? And one every year after?

[johnsch322]

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

the identified number for the BSA is 130 M / 82,000 = 0.06%

When was this study done?  Because there was 82,000 claims does not mean that is all who were abused.

[CynicalScouter]

11 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

How about a disclosure when signing up that had to be signed by the parent

So, you want a disclosure statement at sign up saying that "your scout may be sexually abused"?

This, by the way, is the information currently on the registration form.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-406.pdf

Youth Protection Begins With You™. Child abuse is a serious problem in our society, and
unfortunately, it can occur anywhere, even in Scouting. Youth safety is of paramount importance to Scouting.
For that reason, the BSA continues to create and consistently improve its barriers to abuse.
The BSA is committed to providing a safe environment for young people. To maintain a safe environment, the BSA
provides parents and adult leaders with numerous online and printed resources and adult leaders must complete
Youth Protection Training (YPT) and renew their training as required. Parents who participate in Scouting activities
are highly recommended to complete YPT. To learn more about the BSA’s Youth Protection resources, go to
www.scouting.org/training/youth-protection/.
Mandatory Reporting
All persons involved in Scouting must immediately report to local authorities any good-faith suspicion or belief that
any child is or has been physically or sexually abused; physically or emotionally neglected; exposed to any form of
violence or threat; or exposed to any form of sexual exploitation including the possession, manufacture, or distribution
of child pornography, online solicitation, enticement, or showing of obscene material. No person may abdicate this
reporting responsibility to any other person.
Additionally, any known or suspected abuse or behavior that might put a youth at risk must also be reported to the
local Scout executive or the Scouts First Helpline (1-844-SCOUTS1 or 1-844-726-8871) if your Scout executive or
local council cannot be reached.
All parents must review the How to Protect Your Children From Child Abuse: A Parent’s Guide booklet in the
Cub Scout or Scouts BSA handbooks or at www.scouting.org/training/youth-protection/.
Youth Protection Policies
• Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings.
There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. A registered female adult
leader over 21 must be present for any activity involving female youth.
• One-on-one contact between adult leaders and youth members is prohibited both inside and outside of Scouting.
These and other key Youth Protection policies are addressed in the training and at www.scouting.org/training/
youth-protection/.
To learn about the BSA’s other health and safety policies, please review the online version of the Guide to Safe
Scouting, the Scouter Code of Conduct, and the Sweet Sixteen of BSA Safety, which are available at www.scouting.
org/health-and-safety

Edited August 30, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

3 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

When was this study done?  Because there was 82,000 claims does not mean that is all who were abused.

That's what we've told him over and over and over. That 82,500 is NOT a scientifically valid count of total amount of scouts abused. It is, at best, a count of total number of SEXUAL ABUSE CLAIMS FILED IN THIS PARTICULAR BANKRUPTCY. And that is ALL it is.

The message just is not getting through.

[johnsch322]

4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

So, you want a disclosure statement at sign up saying that "your scout may be sexually abused"?

This, by the way, is the information currently on the registration form.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/524-406.pdf

Youth Protection Begins With You™. Child abuse is a serious problem in our society, and
unfortunately, it can occur anywhere, even in Scouting. Youth safety is of paramount importance to Scouting.
For that reason, the BSA continues to create and consistently improve its barriers to abuse.
The BSA is committed to providing a safe environment for young people. To maintain a safe environment, the BSA
provides parents and adult leaders with numerous online and printed resources and adult leaders must complete
Youth Protection Training (YPT) and renew their training as required. Parents who participate in Scouting activities
are highly recommended to complete YPT. To learn more about the BSA’s Youth Protection resources, go to
www.scouting.org/training/youth-protection/.
Mandatory Reporting
All persons involved in Scouting must immediately report to local authorities any good-faith suspicion or belief that
any child is or has been physically or sexually abused; physically or emotionally neglected; exposed to any form of
violence or threat; or exposed to any form of sexual exploitation including the possession, manufacture, or distribution
of child pornography, online solicitation, enticement, or showing of obscene material. No person may abdicate this
reporting responsibility to any other person.
Additionally, any known or suspected abuse or behavior that might put a youth at risk must also be reported to the
local Scout executive or the Scouts First Helpline (1-844-SCOUTS1 or 1-844-726-8871) if your Scout executive or
local council cannot be reached.
All parents must review the How to Protect Your Children From Child Abuse: A Parent’s Guide booklet in the
Cub Scout or Scouts BSA handbooks or at www.scouting.org/training/youth-protection/.
Youth Protection Policies
• Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings.
There must be a registered female adult leader over 21 in every unit serving females. A registered female adult
leader over 21 must be present for any activity involving female youth.
• One-on-one contact between adult leaders and youth members is prohibited both inside and outside of Scouting.
These and other key Youth Protection policies are addressed in the training and at www.scouting.org/training/
youth-protection/.
To learn about the BSA’s other health and safety policies, please review the online version of the Guide to Safe
Scouting, the Scouter Code of Conduct, and the Sweet Sixteen of BSA Safety, which are available at www.scouting.
org/health-and-safety

That is better.  I went and looked at the form.  Do you know when it was first written on an application like that?  That form was from 2018 I think.

2 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

That's what we've told him over and over and over. That 82,500 is NOT a scientifically valid count of total amount of scouts abused. It is, at best, a count of total number of SEXUAL ABUSE CLAIMS FILED IN THIS PARTICULAR BANKRUPTCY. And that is ALL it is.

The message just is not getting through.

More than one message isn't getting thru.