Chapter 11 Announced - Part 5 - RSA Ruling

[CynicalScouter]

5 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

I believe the virtues represented by the commenters on this forum cannot be squared with throwing some victims under the bus because of the accident of geography or the vagaries of the law or the unavailability of insurance in a particular coverage year. 

I can find no basis in law that would allow a bankruptcy judge to, in effect, set aside the statutes of limitations in all of these states ("accident of geography") to the tune of 58,000 cases in one fell swoop.

If you can provide one, by all means please do.

As for the "unavailability of insurance": you cannot get blood out of a stone. If BSA doesn't have the money and doesn't have the insurance coverage to pay out all 82,500 claims at 100% of value  (TCC charitably estimated at $104 billion), how exactly it you think the bankruptcy judge can make that suddenly appear? Ordering the insurance companies to pay out on claims that by their very terms are beyond the scope of coverage?

Edited August 28, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

12 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

So consider that the carriers’ arguments are mostly BS. And people are advocating that these victims shouldn’t even get a vote? I strongly agree with others here who call that out for what it is — immoral and unjust.

My concern here is what is LEGAL. Unjust and immoral aside, a federal bankruptcy judge cannot wave a magic wand and suddenly resurrect 58,000 time barred claims.

Not even the TCC, FCR, or Coalition are arguing that's possible.

So, can you cite to a single case where a bankruptcy judge resurrected thousands of claims beyond state statutes of limitations?

And relatedly, and honestly, what is your particular end goal here?

If it is 100% pay out on all 82,500 claims (as it appears to be) how and where exactly do you think the court will get that $104+ billion (at least) from and on what legal argument? Not moral argument, legal argument?

Edited August 28, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[Muttsy]

3 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I can find no basis in law that would allow a bankruptcy judge to, in effect, set aside the statutes of limitations in all of these states ("accident of geography") to the tune of 58,000 cases in one fell swoop.

You misunderstand.  She has no authority to adjudicate any unliquidated claim. She cannot rule one way or the other on SOL or any claim or defense. Every claimant has the right to adjudicate his claim in state or federal court. She has no power to strip them of that right. It’s in the bankruptcy code. 
 

As for blood from a turnip you are mixing apples and oranges. The case will either win claimant approval or it won’t and BSA will fail, which seems more likely. Whatever blood gets extracted from BSA et al is what it is. I’m talking about morality and fairness  

[CynicalScouter]

 

3 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

Every claimant has the right to adjudicate his claim in state or federal court. She has no power to strip them of that right. It’s in the bankruptcy code. 

Yep. And in the vast majority of these those cases (58,000) the statutes ran out long time ago. So you theory is what here? That the judge simply rejects any bankruptcy plan for BSA at all? And that all 58,000 will go running into state courts and sue BSA into the ground?

Edited August 28, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

9 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

The case will either win claimant approval or it won’t and BSA will fail, which seems more likely.

Given the situation BSA is in and the possibility this will go on well in 2022, I would hazard a guess that even if claimants rejected a BSA/LC plan, or rather fail to get to 67%, that yes she'll order a cramdown for BSA only ("toggle plan") and let the chips fall where they may for the LCs and CO.

Yes, I know that would be unprecedented, but so would having BSA simply run out of cash/money which if this goes on too long will be what happens. As I noted and their own internal projections showed: they are out of cash and having to resort to raiding Order of the Arrow and their endowment. Past a certain point, there won't be any BSA left to sue. And the judge has really telegraphed that she won't let that happen.

If that's your desired end goal as a victim of child sexual abuse, I'm not going to argue that. You are entitled to whatever wishes you want, I'm not going to judge.

But if your desire is 100% of 82,500 claimants being compensated 100%, that's simply never, ever going to happen.

Edited August 28, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[Eagle1993]

Don’t forget that it is BSA National declaring bankruptcy.   They were headquartered in NJ and NY prior to 1978.   
 

When the statements of time barred claims come out, is that per the state the crime occurred or Texas, NJ and/or NY laws?  I legal theory was that National BSA could be sued based on the laws of the state is incorporated in.  I would be shocked if the judge threw out 50,000 claims.  
 

Now, if the claim doesn’t meet NJ, NY, Texas or the state where it occurred… perhaps those could be tossed.  However, the issue is that BSA LCs are attempting to get protection from future lawsuits.  Due to that and the fact thar SOL laws are constantly changing its hard to see those claims being completely tossed. 
 

Perhaps there is a weight vote where certain claim votes are higher dollar value than others.  I just don’t see this as a quick simple issue given the various state laws involved and what BSA is asking in return.

[Muttsy]

CS, please read my post again, relax and think about it some more. You have a sharp analytical mind but you are operating with a flawed understanding of bankruptcy. 

[CynicalScouter]

Just now, Eagle1993 said:

When the statements of time barred claims come out, is that per the state the crime occurred or Texas, NJ and/or NY laws?

Where the abuse occurred.

Yes, I am aware that the attorneys for a few victims have argued that because BSA was headquartered in NY and NJ and charted in DC that their various lookback windows reopens ALL cases. However, even the legal press in NJ indicated when that lawsuit was filed it was "novel".

2 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Perhaps there is a weight vote where certain claim votes are higher dollar value than others.

That's sorta where the Grey plan winds up in terms of compensation. But in order to weigh votes, you'd have to parse out 82,500 votes. Right now they are all valued equally ($1). Trying to implement a weighing system would require giving votes in say Virginia 25 cents whereas California voters get the $1.

I can easily see that becoming a nightmare as claimants fight their valuation/vote weighing for years.

[CynicalScouter]

5 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

You have a sharp analytical mind but you are operating with a flawed understanding of bankruptcy. 

No, I'm not. I believe what you are suggesting is that somehow either

a) the judge can magically make the SoLs disappear or

b) the judge will simply let BSA run out of money and die.

Neither appear reasonable.

So again, I ask: what is your end goal here in the bankruptcy?

100% of 82,500 victims get 100% of abuse claim values?

BSA's demise?

The BSA fails to reach any kind of Chapter 7 plan and exits bankruptcy with no plan at all?

Some combo?

I'm honestly asking because it isn't clear what your desired endstate is

Edited August 28, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[1980Scouter]

If there is to be a settlement that covers CO's too, how can it not involve a large increase in contributions from National and LC's to the fund?

Why would any organization have to contribute hundreds of millions to the settlement, stay in the BSA program, even just through a facilities use agreement?

I just don't see how BSA can ask CO's for any money if they hope to retain them in the future.

 

[CynicalScouter]

41 minutes ago, Muttsy said:

Now, how much do you think the cost of defense is for the carriers who are contractually bound to defend these cases. and must develop facts to support a single motion to dismiss on statute of limitations grounds. Answer: A Lot. Now multiply that by 50,000 claims the carriers call invalid. 

I see, so your theory is that the 50,000+ claimants who are time barred are all going to go into state courts and argue 50,000+ versions of "fraudulent concealment" or "repressed memories" and that as a result of being flooded the insurance companies are going to pay them all out at 100% of abuse claim value?

[Eagle1993]

11 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Where the abuse occurred.

Not sure if this is 100% true.  Think of it this way.  A scout in a Troop in an Illinois council travels to Wisconsin for summer camp.  He is sexually assaulted at camp.  Does the SOL is Wisconsin apply or Illinois?  What about the reverse?  This isn’t a black/white situation and individual claimants are giving up their right to sue in state courts.  The judge cannot simply wipe out their claims and if she does expect a decade of appeals.  

[CynicalScouter]

1 minute ago, Eagle1993 said:

Not sure if this is 100% true.  Think of it this way.  A scout in a Troop in an Illinois council travels to Wisconsin for summer camp.  He is sexually assaulted at camp.  Does the SOL is Wisconsin apply or Illinois?  What about the reverse?  This isn’t a black/white situation and individual claimants are giving up their right to sue in state courts.

For purposes of computing as part of Plan 2.0 it was place of occurrence of the abuse.

My point wasn't "this is the right thing" only that "this is how BSA computed 58,000 time barred claims" and that number has been used/cited by other attorneys and parties including TCC/FCR/Coalition as part of the "Grey" plan.

[CynicalScouter]

1 minute ago, 1980Scouter said:

If there is to be a settlement that covers CO's too, how can it not involve a large increase in contributions from National and LC's to the fund?

Why would any organization have to contribute hundreds of millions to the settlement, stay in the BSA program, even just through a facilities use agreement?

That's where the train is heading and the RSA and Plan 4.0 both contemplate a scenario where the COs are having to pay in.

Plan 4.0 https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/7082572a-2eeb-4a35-bc9b-e515925846fd_5486.pdf talks about "Contributing Chartered Organizations" and "Contributing Chartered Organization Settlement Contribution".

BSA is NOT and does NOT have the money to cover the tens of millions that the COs are on the hook for.

All those years of COs not paying any attention to their units and CORs just signing the annual charter and paying no attention whatsoever are coming back to haunt them.

And whether or not they toss out every unit they have NOW (or even allow facilities use agreements) it does nothing to remove the liability already incurred and the debts that will have to be paid.

Check out the Methodist thread and read the letters from the Bishops. They are absolutely livid that BSA is telling them a) they were never covered and b) even in years they WERE covered by BSA's policies the policy limitations are way, way below what the value of the victims claims are going to be.

 

[1980Scouter]

5 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

That's where the train is heading and the RSA and Plan 4.0 both contemplate a scenario where the COs are having to pay in.

Plan 4.0 https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/7082572a-2eeb-4a35-bc9b-e515925846fd_5486.pdf talks about "Contributing Chartered Organizations" and "Contributing Chartered Organization Settlement Contribution".

BSA is NOT and does NOT have the money to cover the tens of millions that the COs are on the hook for.

All those years of COs not paying any attention to their units and CORs just signing the annual charter and paying no attention whatsoever are coming back to haunt them.

And whether or not they toss out every unit they have NOW (or even allow facilities use agreements) it does nothing to remove the liability already incurred and the debts that will have to be paid.

Check out the Methodist thread and read the letters from the Bishops. They are absolutely livid that BSA is telling them a) they were never covered and b) even in years they WERE covered by BSA's policies the policy limitations are way, way below what the value of the victims claims are going to be.

 

I think there is still some money out there especially from LC's. Mine has 20 million in assets and is paying 6.5 million into the settlement.  Not all LC's are like this but I was really surprised reading how much reserve funds some councils have. 

National still has HAB's and other small assets.  I feel like it will take more of these assets if there is to be a settlement.

While not fair, maybe the cash rich councils could contribute more to try to get a final deal with CO's covered. If the goal is to truly save scouting for the future, it might take this.