Chapter 11 Announced - Part 5 - RSA Ruling

[ThenNow]

11 minutes ago, David CO said:

Feel free to start a separate thread.

If you recall, there are specific, non-monetary components to this case that are very much appropriate to this discussion. Further, if you want to understand why so many people filed claims and why we are so vocal and descriptive about the life impacts of child sexual abuse  — which has brought BSA into this situation — you’d want to know. Money? Yes. Compensation? No. Recompense? Yes. Accountability and acknowledgement of not only the abuse but the years of torment? Yes, most definitely. [Exclamation point] Your myopic opinion is pretty much just that. That’s not a judgement, rather an observation. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by ThenNow

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

where is the discussion about victim's needs other than money?

I don’t know how to link to old posts, on top of which this one is in the now time-barred previous episode, Episode IV: Fatal Revisions. So, this is from 8.2.21 

REPOST

As to the sense that “there’s not much that does help - no undoing what was done,” that’s true in part and less so as to the other. We can all agree about the undoing. What’s done is done, as to our historic BSA child sexual abuse. As I say, the abuse is the abuse is the abuse. It happened. It was bad. For many brutal. For nearly all of us, life changing to one degree or another. “Help” is very relative, of course, so it’s terribly hard to accurately define. I will give some examples of things that, for me, have qualified as “helping.” Then, I’ll recap what I said before about a good result, which would “help.”

1. Acknowledgment. I see you. I believe you. You are not alone. You are not forgotten. You are not crazy. You are not worthless. You have a future. You are a man. You did not invite this. You are not defective, even though you have been broken.

2. Listening. As you’ve seen/read, this forum has been helpful for some/many of us. It has been critical to my sanity since I first posted in December of last year. I’m grateful to have been welcomed, even in the midst of occasional canon fire. Sometimes, we just need to express the turmoil and be allowed to do so. It’s one of the most difficult things to do, especially when we are attacked for expressing it strongly. We’re doing our best, which may not seem like enough or an adequate excuse for heightened emotions. When others fail to consider what we’re going through and don’t understand we’re not just lurking around on an online forum looking to pick a fight, it is doubly difficult. When strongly challenged, especially as to our veracity or motive, we either attack back, flee or go numb. 

3. Support. One of the ways people support me is by simply asking, “Is there anything I can do for you today?” Sometimes, they get frustrated when I say “not that I can think of,” possibly surmising I’m trying to be a martyr, carrying the burden alone. When, in fact, I often just can’t think of anything. It’s the ASK and the obvious willingness to DO something that is important. This is why when some of you ask me/us what are obviously compassionate questions about what can be done (for us and in the future of Scouting) it means so much. When I/we sense the sincerity and concern, followed by active (virtual) listening and reflective responses, it’s powerful.

4. Don’t Solve for X. We can’t be “fixed” or solved, as to what happened to us. Fix the BSA. Please don’t come with your tool kit and try to look under the hood of victims and do your magic to make things run smoothly. Men, in particular, can be prone to over-simplify, race to a diagnosis and set off banging on things to make them work. This is way too complex. As I’ve said before, if you want to really understand, you’ll need to study the subject matter. You can read, The Body Keeps the Score and Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, to understand a bit about impacts. I can suggest others, as well. I could go on, but I’ll leave it there and other guys can add.

I did this in a previous post about a “good outcome” and may have forgotten a couple points, but what would help at this stage, relative to the BSA drawing us out and into this would include:

1) YPT improvements (with all the elements I, MYCVAStory and others have noted); 

2) Full disclosure and accountability;

3) AG investigations;

4) As much money as we can get; and

5) An actual apology, not just “We are so saddened...that some were abused while a part of Scouting.” 

[CynicalScouter]

I want to pull this from another related thread from a letter by the Iowa Methodist Bishop

36 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

"They are leaving their chartered organizations out on a limb by themselves," Haller wrote in the letter. "The local churches are at risk of having to pay significant sums to victims to compensate them for the damages they suffered at the hands of some scout leaders ... All of this is because the BSA did not fulfill their promise to have enough insurance to protect the local churches."

Past a certain point I have to think that this is about both protecting Methodist churches AND applying as much leverage/pressure as they can on BSA to come to an agreement ASAP.

5 hours ago, ThenNow said:

If you noticed, the source he quoted from this forum is someone who has demonstrated an enormous breadth of knowledge of this case, BSA National, Local, Scouting on the ground and the law, generally. I doubt it was a random pick out a hat.  

I'm blushing.

[CynicalScouter]

4 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

This is true but the poster to whom you refer is not always correct because of incomplete information.  He does not appear to be on the NEC or NEB and thus does not always have a complete understanding.  Also, he knows about his council and a small number of others.  That does mean that he knows even the most common findings in councils.  He has done a marvelous job in informing us but I would not expect an attorney to be publicly or professionally - or any of us.

Oh absolutely, I'm not enough of a mucky mucky to know much of anything. And if BSA as demonstrated one thing over the years it is that it absolutely will not tell its unit level leaders a darn thing about anything.

Sure my information incomplete. And guess whose fault that is? The high and mighty folks in the NEC and NEB, not mention often Council-level who earnestly believe that the unit-level leaders are either too stupid or too something else to be properly informed of anything.

Kosnoff is quoting me now? Bully. I'm got no enormous love for Councils and BSA. My own Council had such rank corruption that the SE lost both our camp AND scout office, was (allegedly) directly pocketing money, etc. The Council board, again put there for their donations and wallets and not their actual oversight, was dumbfounded. My council was given 30 days to fold, instead unit-level leaders rallied and saved this council. But we remain without a camp and renting a scout office. It will take decades to recover.

And National, who under the terms of its own Charter and Bylaws are suppose to have access to the council finances and engage in oversight, did precisely nothing.

So if I am a bit (gasp) cynical about council and council boards, I've earned the right to be.

[ThenNow]

8 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I'm blushing.

I’m taking that as an implied, return compliment. Making a cynical person blush takes a steady hand, a measure of skill and, undoubtedly, flare.

[vol_scouter]

6 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Oh absolutely, I'm not enough of a mucky mucky to know much of anything. And if BSA as demonstrated one thing over the years it is that it absolutely will not tell its unit level leaders a darn thing about anything.

Sure my information incomplete. And guess whose fault that is? The high and mighty folks in the NEC and NEB, not mention often Council-level who earnestly believe that the unit-level leaders are either too stupid or too something else to be properly informed of anything.

Kosnoff is quoting me now? Bully. I'm got no enormous love for Councils and BSA. My own Council had such rank corruption that the SE lost both our camp AND scout office, was (allegedly) directly pocketing money, etc. The Council board, again put there for their donations and wallets and not their actual oversight, was dumbfounded. My council was given 30 days to fold, instead unit-level leaders rallied and saved this council. But we remain without a camp and renting a scout office. It will take decades to recover.

And National, who under the terms of its own Charter and Bylaws are suppose to have access to the council finances and engage in oversight, did precisely nothing.

So if I am a bit (gasp) cynical about council and council boards, I've earned the right to be.

The BSA has for years tried to allow the LCs to communicate directly with their volunteers.  So without that knowledge, many blame the national BSA for communication issues for a problem with the local councils.  Sounds like your local council needs new leadership as those are not problems that I have seen in my council as I will soon begin my 28th year on the EB with some of that time on the EC. 

Volunteers are often not pleased with decisions that other volunteers on the national committees make.  Having served on some of those committees, most all on this list would likely make the identical decisions if they had all of the same information.

Many have implied all sorts of things about national though most of what national has said has not been attacked by the TCC and FCR.  The BSA is clearly running out of money as they predicted but many on this list were very dubious.  The statements about the Summit Bechtel Reserve seems to have shown to be valid though many here thought otherwise.

All of us here are doing the best that we can to understand what is occurring and what are the implications.  Some, like @CynicalScouter have greatly improved our understanding and for that I am thankful.

For a professional to quote people who are not identified or backgrounds verified in a field where I have been summarily criticized for challenging some of the analysis of the attorneys.  So either they are precise, truthful, and accurate or they are not as quoting any of us would be.

[CynicalScouter]

1 minute ago, vol_scouter said:

The BSA is clearly running out of money as they predicted but many on this list were very dubious.

I never doubted it. What I had a hard time thinking of was to what desperate straits they'd take it. I've been told the OA fund AND OA Endowment was raided/forced loan in order to keep the lights on. They've taken from the main BSA endowment. I for one NEVER doubted they'd be out of cash.

3 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Volunteers are often not pleased with decisions that other volunteers on the national committees make. 

My biggest concern with the role of national committees is that a) it is literally impossible to see who are even members b) how they were selected (handpicked?) and c) how to express our concerns and to whom.

But this is veering off the bankruptcy topic and, per mod policy, I won't veer any further than that.

[Eagle1993]

Yes … Let’s get this back to bankruptcy before it diverges into Insta Palms.  

[vol_scouter]

18 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I never doubted it. What I had a hard time thinking of was to what desperate straits they'd take it. I've been told the OA fund AND OA Endowment was raided/forced loan in order to keep the lights on. They've taken from the main BSA endowment. I for one NEVER doubted they'd be out of cash.

My biggest concern with the role of national committees is that a) it is literally impossible to see who are even members b) how they were selected (handpicked?) and c) how to express our concerns and to whom.

But this is veering off the bankruptcy topic and, per mod policy, I won't veer any further than that.

@CynicalScouter  In short reply: a) Agree - it is because the members and professionals who are associated with committees receive foul language and threats - occasionally death threats. b) Usually selected by the chair and BSA staff though when I was a chair, I got mainly unit scouters.  c)  This is a valid criticism.  All committees have a professional staff assigned to it that should field questions but obtaining the information as to who that person is and what is their contact information is difficult at best.

Understanding the communication issues between the National Service Center, the local councils, the chartered organizations, the volunteers, and the members (including their parents) helps to understand what we are all seeing with the different groups working through this complex process.

 

[Eagle1993]

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

The BSA is clearly running out of money as they predicted but many on this list were very dubious.

BSA didn’t say they were running or of money.  They said they would be out of cash by this summer.  Most of us believed them at the time. In fact, some felt this was so serious to warn scouts to earn Eagle early. 
https://www.washingtonpost.com/dc-md-va/2020/11/19/boy-scouts-bankruptcy-abuse/
Now what is the truth?  At the end of December 2020, they had $52.5M in unrestricted cash and $175M total unrestricted liquidity balance.

At the end of June 2021, they have $72.5M in unrestricted cash and $175M total unrestricted liquidity balance.

Even their restricted accounts have grown.  It appears BSA can last, at least financially, in bankruptcy for much longer than they previously stated. 

This appears to have been a negotiation technique. There is no way they accidentally found $72M in cash.  

No doubt they are in trouble, but add this to the pile of BSA not being transparent with their volunteers.  Their recent plans show them lasting until March 2021 in bankruptcy.   It’s great news that they can continue operating that long… but it clearly makes me question their past statements.
 

BSA is one of the worst leaders in change management regardless of what side you stand on recent issues, and their poor communication and lack of transparency during the bankruptcy just adds fuel to that fire.  

[David CO]

30 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

In short reply: a) Agree - it is because the members and professionals who are associated with committees receive foul language and threats - occasionally death threats.

This is not unique to national scouters.  Over a hundred thousand of our good citizens serve on city councils, school boards, park boards, library boards, etc..  It can be a thankless task.  It can draw criticism, both deserved and undeserved.  These local bodies conduct open meetings, and the names of their members are made public.  BSA could do the same.

I don't buy the argument that BSA needs to operate in such secrecy.  

 

[vol_scouter]

An important point is that for the BSA to exit chapter 11 bankruptcy, the BSA must submit a financially sound five year budget.  This means that the BSA must have sufficient liquidity to carry it through that time.  The financial plan will require projections on the income that will allow for very modest growth but will not be accepted with dramatic growth.

@David CO  The reason that the committee membership lists are not readily available is to limit abuse from volunteers in a youth program (it is disgusting for such abuse to be from Scouters).  Despite that, I would feel better if the system were to be more open.

[mrjohns2]

14 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

The reason that the committee membership lists are not readily available is to limit abuse from volunteers in a youth program (it is disgusting for such abuse to be from Scouters).  Despite that, I would feel better if the system were to be more open.

Even a list of the committee structure would help. The same thing is missing from my council. Very opaque. I always wonder if groups like that sit around and say "the same people always do all the work, I wonder why no one else volunteers!"

[yknot]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

 

BSA is one of the worst leaders in change management regardless of what side you stand on recent issues, and their poor communication and lack of transparency during the bankruptcy just adds fuel to that fire.  

BSA operates like a cult, not like any kind of recognizable corporate entity. It has its own rules and seems to rely on blind discipleship. There are a lot of good people involved but the overall structure itself is a dysfunctional alternate reality.

 

[PACAN]

Once you realize the LC EBs are lemmings to the SE, a lot of the "top secret management" will become clear.    My B-I-L's EB voted a gentleman back on the EB who had passed away.   "all in favor...say aye"