Chapt 11 Proof of Claim leads to Local Search Warrant, Arrest

[johnsch322]

5 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Badge of honor, my friend. Badge of honor.

Thank you. I get your drift.

[Eagle1970]

12 hours ago, awanatech said:

I guess this leaves me kind of confused. I thought that those who had been abused were wanting justice for their abusers. Wouldn't this law enforcement action be a good thing in that it would hold the abusers accountable legally for their crimes? Or is that some who filled out the Proof of Claim forms were wanting some (a lot?) of money, but not necessarily for justice to be served on their abusers? 

It's my abuse and my choice whether I choose to prosecute.  And I fully resent the inference on the money.  I don't need it and the justice I seek is with the BSA for allowing this culture for many years.  I do not want a target on my back from my abuser and therefore I choose how I want to proceed.  I read the headline that is was confidential.  Sadly, there was fine print about disclosing to 3rd parties and law enforcement that I failed to read.

[MattR]

14 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Very, very few were already reported or listed, for that very reason.

I got a Saturday night hypothetical for youz guys. You’re a member of the LC Cone of Silence Brigade. You’re tasked with going through your share of a couple hundred Proofs of Claim. In your reading, you discover terrible things, credibly alleged, about a guy you go to church with or see at the bar or is a part of your hunting club. He abused more than one boy, you find. The SoL had run on all the claims. What do you do? How do you feel? How do you find yourself around him? Hm?

I saw my abuser in my hometown once when I was a grown a** man. I walked into a coffee shop, got in line, and there he was a few people in front of me. I froze between pissing myself and going to my truck to get the bat I kept behind the seat. I talked myself into just waiting for him to leave and resisted the temptation to do what I wanted to do. 

It sounds to me like you have 2 questions - one about the perpetrator and one about the victims. Before having read this thread I wouldn't have thought about how dealing with the first might impact the second. So I'd start with the victims to find out what might help them.

As for the SoL, that only has to do with what can be done under the law. If there is credible evidence, why not send it to a local news source? I understand that the victims might be hesitant, but if not, maybe CSA needs it's own #metoo movement? 

How much of the pain comes from not being able to confront it? My guess is the shame and helplessness that victims of regular sexual abuse have would also apply to CSA? Isn't the shame and helplessness the source of power the men had over all the children they abused? Why not take that away from them? 

I apologize if I'm way off base.

[CynicalScouter]

48 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

It's my abuse and my choice whether I choose to prosecute. 

True, it is. However, in a good number of states due to mandatory reporting statutes plus BSA's YPT rules, the scouter who finds out about the abuse does not have a choice about whether or not they report to law enforcement. They have to report.

Part of the difficulty here is that we are missing a major part of this story.

Someone in BSA or the LC got this information and relayed it to law enforcement (or did so through lawyers).

We have I believe NO idea if law enforcement then contacted the victim.

Moreover, and this is also another completely realistic possibility, is that the confidential claim information wasn't used directly at all. By that I mean the following (and I've seen this in criminal cases before).

Jane Smith accuses John Doe of a having a gun illegally and shows a picture of John Doe holding it. A crime? Sure. So that gives enough reasonable suspicion to start an investigation. Turns out John Doe DID have a gun and he had a permit for it, but police as part of that investigation observe John Doe making drug deals. John Doe is arrested and charged with possession with intent to distribute.

In other words, the proof of claim may only have been used to the extent necessary to get police to start to take an active interest in this person and that led not to a child abuse or child sexual abuse charge but possession of child porn.

[David CO]

24 minutes ago, MattR said:

I apologize if I'm way off base.

You're not off base.

I am taking a broader view of the question.  How do I feel about having criminals living in my community?  Pretty much the same way I have always felt about it.  I'm not comfortable with it, but it is the unhappy reality I have to live with.  We do have criminals living amongst us.

I don't believe in vigilante justice.  I am not going to join the frantic mob with torches and pitchforks.  I am not going to take the law into my own hands.  I work within the law.  Always have.  

I have had students in my classroom who were vicious criminals.  Gang members.  Arsonists.  Rapists.  Thieves.  As a teacher, I have had to treat those kids with the same courtesy as I did any other student in my school.  It takes a lot of self-discipline and professionalism to do that.  But I did it.  It was my job.

 

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

why not send it to a local news source?

Tried that. They wouldn’t touch it without something “official.” Too much exposure if it turns out to be at all iffy or fabricated. Dandy defamation law suit in the making.

1 hour ago, MattR said:

I understand that the victims might be hesitant, but if not, maybe CSA needs it's own #metoo movement? 

It’s very different when you initiate, as I did, however futile. As I said earlier, totally different when you’re in an assumed “confidential”situation like this and someone else launches it. I’m not sure how that can/could be handled. I agree with Tim Kosnoff that someone needs to step in and clarify for the sake of all victim claimants. I think its importance can’t be overstated, at least from my crappy antique Windsor chair.

Hm. Not sure of the latter. I think #metoo has become extremely problematic. Frankly, I’ve viewed it rise and have commented to many in my circle that the “celebritization” (I that new non-word) of sexual abuse, depression, PTSD has done tons of damage. I would love to delve further into that topic, including how it could be done differently. 

1 hour ago, MattR said:

How much of the pain comes from not being able to confront it? My guess is the shame and helplessness that victims of regular sexual abuse have would also apply to CSA? Isn't the shame and helplessness the source of power the men had over all the children they abused? Why not take that away from them? 

In order:

1) The life impact pain, which is enormous, often is rampaging when before the confrontation. For me, the greatest emotional/psychological cratering came after it revealed itself when my dad died and my boys asked to join Scouting. I utterly fell apart.

2) For sure and, for boys abused by men, multiply by some X factor, not sure what it is. You’ve heard lots of this here.

3) Yes, in part, but for me not primarily. I was locked up and down, coming to dissociate and act normal in all other contexts, even immediately after. Hero worship, the lure of feeling “special” and getting more attention can be huge during extended periods of abuse.

3) You mean in the form of “prosecution” by public humiliation? If so, doing the same to my abuser isn’t going to put mine to rest. It will feel like a measure of justice, but that won’t heal it. That’s going to go on for a long time. Remember, there is potentially an unspeakable shame in admitting all this publicly. That’s a large part of the reaction you’re seeing from several of us.

Hope that helps. Sorry for any typos. Moving fast today.

Edited August 22, 2021 by ThenNow

[johnsch322]

10 minutes ago, David CO said:

How do I feel about having criminals living in my community?  Pretty much the same way I have always felt about it.  I'm not comfortable with it, but it is the unhappy reality I have to live with.  We do have criminals living amongst us.

Having criminals/abusers in the community and being uncomfortable or unhappy is far and away from being a victim of the criminal/abuser.  If the rapist in your class had victimized someone in your family or someone you were close to how courteous or professional would you be? 

[ThenNow]

50 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

However, in a good number of states due to mandatory reporting statutes plus BSA's YPT rules, the scouter who finds out about the abuse does not have a choice about whether or not they report to law enforcement. T

A bunch of us are old guys and our abusers are dead or lost in life’s shuffle. This doesn’t apply and needs to be factored in when you respond to his comments.

52 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Moreover, and this is also another completely realistic possibility, is that the confidential claim information wasn't used directly at all. By that I mean the following (and I've seen this in criminal cases before).

Jane Smith accuses John Doe of a having a gun illegally and shows a picture of John Doe holding it. A crime? Sure. So that gives enough reasonable suspicion to start an investigation. Turns out John Doe DID have a gun and he had a permit for it, but police as part of that investigation observe John Doe making drug deals. John Doe is arrested and charged with possession with intent to distribute.

In other words, the proof of claim may only have been used to the extent necessary to get police to start to take an active interest in this person and that led not to a child abuse or child sexual abuse charge but possession of child porn.

Right. That’s why I, anyway, have moved on to the substance of our reaction and am not trying to analyze that case. And, as I said, I aim to find out what happened.

51 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Someone in BSA or the LC got this information and relayed it to law enforcement (or did so through lawyers).

We have I believe NO idea if law enforcement then contacted the victim.

Yes, as I said before.

[ThenNow]

4 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

  If the rapist in your class had victimized someone in your family or someone you were close to how courteous or professional would you be? 

Yes. My point in the hypothetical was not to request a generalization, rather a specific response to a senario. You know the guy. He was in you Unit or LC or at a camp you attended or staffed. Now, you know some horrible stuff you and everyone in your LC Cone of Silence Brigade believes is true. And, he’s beyond the reach of the law. Does that change your feeling or reaction? Some guys who are reading those POCs will confront that exact scenario. 

[David CO]

3 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

Having criminals/abusers in the community and being uncomfortable or unhappy is far and away from being a victim of the criminal/abuser.  If the rapist in your class had victimized someone in your family or someone you were close to how courteous or professional would you be? 

I was physically assaulted by a student, leaving me with a very painful permanent disability.  I haven't had a pain free day in the last 30 years.  It forced me to quit coaching (which I loved).  I also had to step down as Scoutmaster of the troop I founded.

Since I was the only teacher in the school for my subject, I had to teach that kid for a semester.  I hated it.  The kid never raised his hand or spoke to me.  I never spoke to him.  At the end of the semester, I gave him a fair grade.  Is that professional enough for you?

 

[johnsch322]

4 minutes ago, David CO said:

4 minutes ago, David CO said:

I was physically assaulted by a student, leaving me with a very painful permanent disability.  I haven't had a pain free day in the last 30 years.  It forced me to quit coaching (which I loved).  I also had to step down as Scoutmaster of the troop I founded.

Since I was the only teacher in the school for my subject, I had to teach that kid for a semester.  I hated it.  The kid never raised his hand or spoke to me.  I never spoke to him.  At the end of the semester, I gave him a fair grade.  Is that professional enough for you?

 

I feel for you but my first question would be was that student prosecuted for what he did and why would he be allowed in your class?  Did you sue for damages and if not why? Even 30 years ago you could have sued. Have you applied for a disability from the school district/state you worked for?  You are entitled.

 I was a child who was raped by adults.  I had no chance to confront or sue and no help was offered by the organization for whom they were leaders for.  The BSA, LC's and insurance companies are in essence my disability pay.  And if those two gentleman aren't dead I wish they were.

 

[David CO]

8 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

 

If you text inside the blue box, I can't quote you. 

I am not trying to compare injuries.  I don't believe anyone has the right to take justice into his own hands.  Not me.  Not you.  Not anyone.

 

[johnsch322]

12 minutes ago, David CO said:

If you text inside the blue box, I can't quote you. 

I am not trying to compare injuries.  I don't believe anyone has the right to take justice into his own hands.  Not me.  Not you.  Not anyone.

 

I hope you were able to get equitable compensation for your injuries. 
Justice thru the law cannot be served to my abusers because of the law. 

[David CO]

15 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

I hope you were able to get equitable compensation for your injuries. 

Nope.  Not a nickel.

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, David CO said:

I was physically assaulted by a student, leaving me with a very painful permanent disability.  I haven't had a pain free day in the last 30 years.  It forced me to quit coaching (which I loved).  I also had to step down as Scoutmaster of the troop I founded.

Since I was the only teacher in the school for my subject, I had to teach that kid for a semester.  I hated it.  The kid never raised his hand or spoke to me.  I never spoke to him.  At the end of the semester, I gave him a fair grade.  Is that professional enough for you?

I’m truly sorry for that and what you lost, physically and things dear to your heart. That’s awful. What was the reporting and disciplinary process?