Citizenship in Society "Soft Release"; Diversity, Equity, Inclusion Repackaged?

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, RememberSchiff said:

I wonder what kind of leaders we develop from coddling our youth?

 

55 minutes ago, yknot said:

Kids are a little different today. Maybe that's what Fred is referring to. It's not coddling. It's recognizing that the 10 and 11 year of today is different than the 10 year old of 20 years ago. 

This is an old argument.  My apologies for raising it again, but I see the discussion and it's hard to not remind everyone that others have different opinions.  

Coddling?  No.  That's pretending to have an excuse for boorish bad behavior.  

I'm saying it's setting a bad example.  We should not be teaching that it's okay to treat others badly; aka being a jerk.  ... This specific situation is called hazing and against the rules.  

 

[BAJ]

7 hours ago, RememberSchiff said:

Good thing to be able to laugh oneself.

While this is true, and is something that is indeed related to leadership, you don’t teach someone to laugh at themself by putting them in a situation where everyone else is laughing at them and they are pressed to laugh too to save face.  

You teach them to laugh at themselves by creating a situation where everyone is laughing at themselves, and so joining in is a positive thing.  The best of Scout campfire skits are great ways to teach that lesson, since often everyone in the patrol looks ridiculous in the process and that is truly part of the fun.  Sending scouts on hunts for nonexistent things where they get to feel like everyone else — including leaders that are supposed to be trusted mentors to them — are in on a joke at their expense is definitively not.

[MattR]

8 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I'm saying it's setting a bad example.  We should not be teaching that it's okay to treat others badly; aka being a jerk.  ... This specific situation is called hazing and against the rules

You're right, we shouldn't treat others badly. But speaking of different opinions, I assume teasing is okay? At least if it's gentle? If not let me know and I'll remove all of my other posts in this thread. Oops, there I go again.

In other words, looking for smoke shifters can be used as an opportunity to show scouts how to stop things before they go too far, how to be gentle and how to pay attention to how others respond to your actions.

But you're right that, if not done right, it can get out of hand and people get hurt. But that's all the fun parts of scouting. It's a good thing we have the scout law to explain this to the scouts.

There, I can end one post in this thread seriously. Doh!

[fred8033]

24 minutes ago, MattR said:

You're right, we shouldn't treat others badly. But speaking of different opinions, I assume teasing is okay? At least if it's gentle? If not let me know and I'll remove all of my other posts in this thread. Oops, there I go again.

In other words, looking for smoke shifters can be used as an opportunity to show scouts how to stop things before they go too far, how to be gentle and how to pay attention to how others respond to your actions.

But you're right that, if not done right, it can get out of hand and people get hurt. But that's all the fun parts of scouting. It's a good thing we have the scout law to explain this to the scouts.

There, I can end one post in this thread seriously. Doh!

@MattR ... Your words are thoughtful and well written.   My two comments. 

#1 Teasing ... Even teasing is a gray issue.   Grey for those on the other side of the pond.   ...  Teasing can be fun, but can easily and very quickly turn into bad behavior too.  Personally for me, this is my weakness.  I have been consciously trying to minimize my teasing of others.   Instead, I'm trying to focus on authentic, open discussion.  

#2 "if not done right" ... It's not about correctly or not correctly using such a scenario (smoke shifter, bacon stretcher, snipe hunts, etc).   It's in the eyes of the receiver to decide.  Some will handle it well.  Some will not.  ...   I will agree that some people can more easily get away with it with little or no harm.  When I was younger, they'd be called a Teflon person as nothing sticks to them.  ... But it really doesn't matter.  The simple fact is we don't use bad behavior as a teaching mechanism.  And, we don't haze either.  

Edited August 9, 2021 by fred8033

[RememberSchiff]

IMHO, seems quite a jump to equate "teasing" with "hazing".

Back to work, I need to fetch a left-handed screw driver and a sky hook. 

[Navybone]

18 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMHO, seems quite a jump to equate "teasing" with "hazing".

It depends on what the person doing the teasing is trying to do, what is the intent?  How is it received? It is a thin line that all too often is crossed. 

[fred8033]

4 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMHO, seems quite a jump to equate "teasing" with "hazing".

Back to work, I need to fetch a left-handed screw driver and a sky hook. 

Teasing wasn't being compare to hazing.  MattR introduced teasing as a related question.  Personally, I can see teasing as a form of hazing if done as part of someone being newly introduced into a group.  If not, it can just be yet another form of bad behavior.  Bad behavior is attractive because sometimes it can be fun to be naughty.  But, it's still bad behavior.

IMHO, a good rule of thumb ... are you comfortable asking the parent to do the same?  ... at the next troop committee meeting  ... Mrs Anderson, before the troop camp out, can you get the quartermaster to refill the trailer blinker fluid?  ... then wait for their words for you at the next mtg.   

 

[Eagledad]

31 minutes ago, RememberSchiff said:

IMHO, seems quite a jump to equate "teasing" with "hazing".

Back to work, I need to fetch a left-handed screw driver and a sky hook. 

Yes, National hasn't helped either. They for-bided the up-side down Bobcat ceremony because it was hazing. That was stupid, it was a simply holding scouts up-side-down because it was fun for the scouts. Not for the adults. They could have easily said it was a safety concern and everyone would have agreed. I know I would. After holding a dozen scouts up-side-down, I was done for the day. But, National instead insinuated volunteers were purposely humiliating the scouts. They felt they needed leverage I guess, but it only makes National look irresponsible.

And how far does hazing and teasing go. Some councils recommended units not sing the Happy Birthday song because it could embarrass a scout. Hmm. 

Barry

[RememberSchiff]

5 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

IMHO, a good rule of thumb ... are you comfortable asking the parent to do the same?  ... at the next troop committee meeting  ... Mrs Anderson, before the troop camp out, can you get the quartermaster to refill the trailer blinker fluid?  ... then wait for their words for you at the next mtg.   

 

??? We do it often, adult association, and all in good fun.

[fred8033]

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Yes, National hasn't helped either. They for-bided the up-side down Bobcat ceremony because it was hazing. That was stupid, it was a simply holding scouts up-side-down because it was fun for the scouts. Not for the adults. They could have easily said it was a safety concern and everyone would have agreed. I know I would. After holding a dozen scouts up-side-down, I was done for the day. But, National instead insinuated volunteers were purposely humiliating the scouts. They felt they needed leverage I guess, but it only makes National look irresponsible.

And how far does hazing and teasing go. Some councils recommended units not sing the Happy Birthday song because it could embarrass a scout. Hmm. 

Barry

Yeah.  There is a line.  I'll miss things like upside-down bobcat ceremony, but I agree it's more a safety issue.  BUT then again, I could see one in 10 or one in 30 scouts reacting badly.   I'd fear more for the 45+ year old, out of shape dad than the kid.

[Eagledad]

2 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Yeah.  There is a line.  I'll miss things like upside-down bobcat ceremony, but I agree it's more a safety issue.  BUT then again, I could see one in 10 or one in 30 scouts reacting badly.   I'd fear more for the 45+ year old, out of shape dad than the kid.

I'm sure I awarded at least 1000 Bobcats for that ceremony and I never saw a single scout who wasn't giddy with excitement waiting for his turn. I was the CM of a pack with 140 scouts, so 30 bobcats wasn't unusual. We looked for several dads to alternate, mainly for the scouts safety. 

Then Branding became popular to replace the hazing ceremony. An ink print of the Bobcat  was dipped in a water base paint and applied to the arm. But, political correctness ended that ceremony. That was before tatoos were as popular as they are now. I'm thinking the ink print might be popular now. 

Adults know how to take the fun out of scouting.

Barry

[fred8033]

1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

Adults know how to take the fun out of scouting.

This is where I agree.  

Adults can kill the fun in scouting.  

The most important thing is to keep the fun in scouting.  ... It really is a hard balancing line.

[Eagle94-A1]

27 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

. They for-bided the up-side down Bobcat ceremony because it was hazing. That was stupid, it was a simply holding scouts up-side-down because it was fun for the scouts. 

 

10 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

... I never saw a single scout who wasn't giddy with excitement waiting for his turn.

We had one new Cub who broke down and cried because he was not turned upside down like his two older brothers were when he received Bobcat. He had been looking forward that that. Dad took him outside after the meeting, flipped him upside down, and ha oldest brother pin on the Bobcat rank. New Bobcat was happy then. 

[skeptic]

Interesting discussion, and some good observations, especially on societal time frames and misconceptions.  Most of us born in the previous century likely have different perspectives much of the time.  Then, there are personal things some of us have developed and many friends and even others find fun and interesting, or simply annoying.  I became an inveterate punster at a fairly early age, likely settled in by mid high school.  It was part of me, and most people either waited for me to do it, or they simply smiled and groaned.  It really never occurred to me that puns can also get out of hand or out of bounds, especially when dealing with youth.  I learned a hard personal lesson while subbing years ago in that regard.  My last name is fish, and I have lived with that certain level of teasing and name funning my entire life.  Puns may have evolved partly from that, as I became aware of other surnames that could "be funny" in certain contexts.  But, you do not ever want to even joke like that to a young child, as they are not yet ready to necessarily see the difference or appreciate the "fun".  I realized that when a 4th or 5th grader had the courage to tell me it bothered him.  I apologized and also consciously became aware of watching spontaneous puns in relation to people's names.  I also apologized to the class and explained why I was wrong, even telling them that if I did slip, they should tell me and they were allowed to make fun of my name then once.  

 The main thing here is being aware, and also open to apologies and hopefully positive corrective measures.  As far as smoke shifters go, we use it as a group joke at times, including demonstrating the method of right hand and left hand holding the shifting device.  Kids still are more receptive to simple fun than we may think.

 

[Eagledad]

18 minutes ago, skeptic said:

 The main thing here is being aware, and also open to apologies and hopefully positive corrective measures.  As far as smoke shifters go, we use it as a group joke at times, including demonstrating the method of right hand and left hand holding the shifting device.  Kids still are more receptive to simple fun than we may think.

 

I found the greatest role modeling action that bonds and raises trust with scouts is admitting a wrong choice or action. Adults instruct at youth so much of their early life that they rarely see admissions of being wrong from the adults. Youth feel an adult admitting they are wrong raises them, the youth, to an equal level of character and it changes the relationship. 

Barry

Edited August 9, 2021 by Eagledad