Boy Scouts failing because program abandoned ‘laser focus on boys,’ Trail Life USA CEO says

[Eagledad]

7 hours ago, fred8033 said:

No.  I don't accept that as an issue.  There's a reason the term was den mother.  Den mothers existed from the 1950s.   ... The real issue is in the next section.  

 

I always struggle with this explanation because it's not about female that set the program back, it's the large influx of adults without any scouting experience. I was there, so I know the passion and enthusiasm moms brought to the troop program. I personally trained many female Scoutmasters. But, like just about all male and female leaders without a scouting experience, they didn't have the experience as a youth to guide them into what drives youth to scouts, ADVENTURE!. 

Adults by their nature look at stature as the goal of their adults decisions. Adults strive to be better at everything they do. Make life better and improve their lifestyles. It's just our nature. The simple pleasure of being in nature without a show of better position just doesn't fit in the adult mind. So, adults read the books and see how they use the program to show improvement. Unfortunately advancement and rank fit the mature adult psyche perfectly. The adults who didn't go fishing, hiking and play around the campfire don't really get it. They certainly don't know how to plan it. But, a program that gets to first class as fast as possible fits that adults drive perfectly. So, they drive it.

The program always had adults without a youth experience join, but their numbers were small enough that their ignorance of the program didn't take away the priority of fun and adventure. The sudden influence of the unexperienced wave was so great that National introduced completely new training courses in 2000 that were intended to help adults without a scouting experience understand better how a patrol method program was supposed to function. Actually, the training didn't do a good job of teaching patrol method. The course put more effort in teaching adults how to fun a unit as a team. But, the motivation behind the new courses was from the surge of leaders without a scouting experience. However, Patrol Method was never the same after.

Barry

[Jameson76]

14 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

The adults who didn't go fishing, hiking and play around the campfire don't really get it. They certainly don't know how to plan it. But, a program that gets to first class as fast as possible fits that adults drive perfectly. So, they drive it.

Our troop goes and does stuff.  That is the goal.  

On many occasions we get a parent (or leader) that feels we should have "advancement outings", work on this or that specifically.  The SM and key leaders always push back on that and continue to just push going and doing stuff.  Go have fun.  Now just because we do not have specific advancement thrusts on outings, does not mean that advancement does not (or cannot) happen on an outing.

I always like working with Scouts on Camping merit badge, first we camp (not including summer camps) over 20 nights a year so most Scouts get that part easily.  Then when we get to the other parts of requirement 9 and they realize that through normal weekend outings, they have accomplished all of that.

Scouts playing cards, cutting things with knives, burning food, tenting in the rain, building fires, and doing random hikes in the forest to overlooks, waterfalls etc is what we do.  Go do stuff

[Eagle1993]

16 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I always struggle with this explanation because it's not about female that set the program back, it's the large influx of adults without any scouting experience. I was there, so I know the passion and enthusiasm moms brought to the troop program. I personally trained many female Scoutmasters. But, like just about all male and female leaders without a scouting experience, they didn't have the experience as a youth to guide them into what drives youth to scouts, ADVENTURE!. 

Adults by their nature look at stature as the goal of their adults decisions. Adults strive to be better at everything they do. Make life better and improve their lifestyles. It's just our nature. The simple pleasure of being in nature without a show of better position just doesn't fit in the adult mind. So, adults read the books and see how they use the program to show improvement. Unfortunately advancement and rank fit the mature adult psyche perfectly. The adults who didn't go fishing, hiking and play around the campfire don't really get it. They certainly don't know how to plan it. But, a program that gets to first class as fast as possible fits that adults drive perfectly. So, they drive it.

The program always had adults without a youth experience join, but their numbers were small enough that their ignorance of the program didn't take away the priority of fun and adventure. The sudden influence of the unexperienced wave was so great that National introduced completely new training courses in 2000 that were intended to help adults without a scouting experience understand better how a patrol method program was supposed to function. Actually, the training didn't do a good job of teaching patrol method. The course put more effort in teaching adults how to fun a unit as a team. But, the motivation behind the new courses was from the surge of leaders without a scouting experience. However, Patrol Method was never the same after.

Barry

We recently had a camp out where there were no activities planned during the day.  Just camp and figure it out.   During the day, the scouts went on a hike, bike ride and had fun in camp.  When we asked the adults at the next meeting how the outing went, another leader who was present complained that we didn’t have enough activities.   This was from someone with no youth scouting experience.  The PLC liked the outing and had no concerns or complaints… they had fun.  
 

Many adults seem to think that if you don’t have an agenda of activities and advancement then the outing wasn’t fully useful. 

[Jameson76]

1 minute ago, Eagle1993 said:

We recently had a camp out where there were no activities planned during the day.  Just camp and figure it out.   During the day, the scouts went on a hike, bike ride and had fun in camp.  When we asked the adults at the next meeting how the outing went, another leader who was present complained that we didn’t have enough activities.   This was from someone with no youth scouting experience.  The PLC liked the outing and had no concerns or complaints… they had fun.  
 

Many adults seem to think that if you don’t have an agenda of activities and advancement then the outing wasn’t fully useful. 

So true.  I was our outdoor chair for many years and would work with the Greenbar on where we would camp and what we could do on outings.  When the SPL would develop the plan for the weekend I always mentored them that have some things to do, but never to much.  Leave time (especially in the afternoon) for downtime, wandering, etc.

With summer camp I have to talk some parents down and explain that their Scout does not have to come back with forty leven merit badges to have a successful summer camp.  Yes we schedule them in the morning classes (mainly so the leaders can have a nap and quiet time in the site) but leave the afternoon open for free period to go swimming, hiking, or just hanging out at camp.  

It is a balance to have some direction but also to let the Scout self determine what to do.

[Eagledad]

1 minute ago, Jameson76 said:

Our troop goes and does stuff.  That is the goal.  

On many occasions we get a parent (or leader) that feels we should have "advancement outings", work on this or that specifically.  The SM and key leaders always push back on that and continue to just push going and doing stuff.  Go have fun.  Now just because we do not have specific advancement thrusts on outings, does not mean that advancement does not (or cannot) happen on an outing.

I always like working with Scouts on Camping merit badge, first we camp (not including summer camps) over 20 nights a year so most Scouts get that part easily.  Then when we get to the other parts of requirement 9 and they realize that through normal weekend outings, they have accomplished all of that.

Scouts playing cards, cutting things with knives, burning food, tenting in the rain, building fires, and doing random hikes in the forest to overlooks, waterfalls etc is what we do.  Go do stuff

When made adventure and patrol method the two highest priorities of the program. We started with 15 scouts and 10 years later our troop of around 100 scouts was producing an Eagle every 2.5 months. The average age of the scouts going through their EBOR was 16.5 years old.

Like your troop, advancement was not a high priority. But, when the scouts enjoy a fun program in the outdoors, advancement activities are a natural by-product of a healthy patrol method program. Most of the Scouts didn't even realize they were close to Eagle when they started to look at it seriously. 

When puberty matures the mind to more adult thinking, the scout starts to look at where they fit in making the the world better and search to find their place in their small world. In a program where the servant habits of the Scout Law are primary to making decisions, the mature scout will naturally start serving their patrol mates, the patrol and the troop. It is an amazing thing to watch. They have become adults who want to make their world better. And, when given the tools of patrol method habits, they do amazing things. Where else can a young adult get the opportunity to improve the community?

The program works very well when it fits the maturity of all the scouts, but adult leaders more often push the young immature scout to be a leader when following is their best course for growth. Then, at the age when the scout is ready to lead and make great things happen, the scout is burned out by a program of advancement. They are told by the adults that they need to separate from the troop program and find more adventure  to satisfy their mature desire. In reality they need the satisfaction of teaching, mentoring and leading younger scouts in their adventures. They should have had their adventure as younger scouts. They should be leading the young scouts in their adventures.

Barry

[Eagledad]

15 minutes ago, Jameson76 said:

So true.  I was our outdoor chair for many years and would work with the Greenbar on where we would camp and what we could do on outings.  When the SPL would develop the plan for the weekend I always mentored them that have some things to do, but never to much.  Leave time (especially in the afternoon) for downtime, wandering, etc.

 

Our PLC planned at least 2 hours of free time each afternoon on weekend campouts. I once got a call from a new SM with no youth experience ask me how to keep the scouts busy on campouts, He had run out of advancement activities and needed ideas. My first advice was two hours of free time. His reaction was that it was two hours where the scouts would get themselves in trouble and immediately discounted the suggestion.

Adult leaders without a youth scouting experience are 3 years behind adults with a youth scouting experience. Even then, they need to see patrol method in action during those 3 years. Many don't, and that is why Patrol Method won't recover to it's original design intent in this day and age.

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

I concur with the new Scouters with no experience as youth sentiments. The good ones will listen to your advice,  allow you to mentor them, etc. The bad ones will get all their training, then ignore it and your attempts to mentor them, then complain when Scouts transfer out or not join. The worse will tell you you don't know what you are talking about,  Scouting needs to change with the times, call you names, or even curse you out.

[Eagle94-A1]

My experiece is similar to others, if you have a good program, that thr Scouts have ownership of, they will stay. Our 2 last Eagles have stayed around doing stuff. In fact one is at camp now, taking some fun MBs.                                                                                     

[Jameson76]

1 minute ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

My experiece is similar to others, if you have a good program, that thr Scouts have ownership of, they will stay. Our 2 last Eagles have stayed around doing stuff. In fact one is at camp now, taking some fun MBs.                                                                                     

Agree

I had some 17.5 year olds come to camp with us.  Just enjoying their last time at camp as a youth

[fred8033]

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

I always struggle with this explanation because it's not about female that set the program back, it's the large influx of adults without any scouting experience. I was there, so I know the passion and enthusiasm moms brought to the troop program. I personally trained many female Scoutmasters. But, like just about all male and female leaders without a scouting experience, they didn't have the experience as a youth to guide them into what drives youth to scouts, ADVENTURE!. 

Adults by their nature look at stature as the goal of their adults decisions. Adults strive to be better at everything they do. Make life better and improve their lifestyles. It's just our nature. The simple pleasure of being in nature without a show of better position just doesn't fit in the adult mind. So, adults read the books and see how they use the program to show improvement. Unfortunately advancement and rank fit the mature adult psyche perfectly. The adults who didn't go fishing, hiking and play around the campfire don't really get it. They certainly don't know how to plan it. But, a program that gets to first class as fast as possible fits that adults drive perfectly. So, they drive it.

The program always had adults without a youth experience join, but their numbers were small enough that their ignorance of the program didn't take away the priority of fun and adventure. The sudden influence of the unexperienced wave was so great that National introduced completely new training courses in 2000 that were intended to help adults without a scouting experience understand better how a patrol method program was supposed to function. Actually, the training didn't do a good job of teaching patrol method. The course put more effort in teaching adults how to fun a unit as a team. But, the motivation behind the new courses was from the surge of leaders without a scouting experience. However, Patrol Method was never the same after.

Barry

Yep agreed.  I was disagreeing with it being a female leader issue.  It's absolutely an new-leader training / learning issue.  

I think what you wrote and I wrote are same / similar.  

[5thGenTexan]

Not limited to Troops.  Our new CM, since April, has no Scouting experience and since he has read stuff on the internet has ALL the answers.   

[yknot]

16 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Not limited to Troops.  Our new CM, since April, has no Scouting experience and since he has read stuff on the internet has ALL the answers.   

It's not lack of scouting experience that is the problem it is lack of common sense and leadership ability. Plenty of great scouters have been born in the camp fire of just jumping in feet first when no one else would. I don't know why but scouting seems to attract a lot of people with big egos, big mouths, big opinions and little common sense. It's the other ones who make putting up with those kind worth it. 

[5thGenTexan]

55 minutes ago, yknot said:

It's not lack of scouting experience that is the problem it is lack of common sense and leadership ability. Plenty of great scouters have been born in the camp fire of just jumping in feet first when no one else would. I don't know why but scouting seems to attract a lot of people with big egos, big mouths, big opinions and little common sense. It's the other ones who make putting up with those kind worth it. 

Takes training because likes to check off boxes.

Very adult knot oriented.

Expressed no interest in learning to cook because doesnt like it.

Etc.  

[yknot]

19 minutes ago, 5thGenTexan said:

Takes training because likes to check off boxes.

Very adult knot oriented.

Expressed no interest in learning to cook because doesnt like it.

Etc.  

I wish you patience and strength of spirit.  The knot orientation alone gives me a headache. 

[mashmaster]

Frankly they would be shocked at the girls in my ship......   We are 50% female and they have a lot of fun.  We also happen to have been recognized as one of the top Ships in the nation for the last 7 years.  We wained because of Covid but continued forward.  Now that life is starting to look more normal (what is that anyway) we have a big influx in young women and young men that are excited to get out on the water.  

Below is a picture from tonight where some of our girls decided to see if they can fit five of them on a single sunfish.  They succeeded and laughed and laughed about it.