When is enough, enough.

[Mrjeff]

First of all to A Long Walk, never imply that I am trashing the Bill of Rights.  I have defended the Constitution, literally and physically, all of my life, so since you know nothing about me, I would suggest you refrain from personal comments.  To everyone else, I completely understand the branding, approval, and other issues about patches, posters, prints, stickers and jackets.  I agree with the other comments and understand your opinions.  But, to me, the Boy Scouts of America has compromised the concrete foundation on which it was built, but the people in the High Tower still have time to review patches and disapprove designs because it contains a turtle with feathers.  The BSA chooses to control little things like that, but gives in to any whim or idea expressed by anyone with a voice.  The best recent example that I can think of is the building collapse in Miami.  If the foundation and supporting iron cracks, rusts, or otherwise rots away, the whole thing crashes down.  No amount of paint, putty, or shine can stop it from happening, and this is the sad reality.

[CynicalScouter]

13 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

but gives in to any whim or idea expressed by anyone with a voice.

Such as?

[Mrjeff]

I would request that you rely on your own knowledge, opinions and experiences to answer that. First of all to A Long Walk, never imply that I am trashing the Bill of Rights.  I have defended the Constitution, literally and physically, all of my life, so since you know nothing about me, I would suggest you refrain from personal comments.  To everyone else, I completely understand the branding, approval, and other issues about patches, posters, prints, stickers and jackets.  I agree with the other comments and understand your opinions.  But, to me, the Boy Scouts of America has compromised the concrete foundation on which it was built, but the people in the High Tower still have time to review patches and disapprove designs because it contains a turtle with feathers.  The BSA chooses to control little things like that, but gives in to any whim or idea expressed by anyone with a voice.  The best recent example that I can think of is the building collapse in Miami.  If the foundation and supporting iron cracks, rusts, or otherwise rots away, the whole thing crashes down.  No amount of paint, putty, or shine can stop it from happening, and this is the sad reality.

[CynicalScouter]

8 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I would request that you rely on your own knowledge, opinions and experiences to answer that

You are the one who made the assertion that BSA "gives in to any whim or idea expressed by anyone with a voice."

Such as what?

• Girls in Scouts BSA? Cub Scouts?
• Homosexual leaders?
• Bankruptcy?
• Letting Webelos wear tan uniforms?
• No longer allowing segregated units (which BSA did not prohibit until 1974)?

What, exactly, is it you think is an example of BSA "giv[ing] in to any whim or idea expressed by anyone with a voice"?

Edited July 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ALongWalk]

7 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I would request that you rely on your own knowledge, opinions and experiences to answer that. First of all to A Long Walk, never imply that I am trashing the Bill of Rights.  I have defended the Constitution, literally and physically, all of my life, so since you know nothing about me, I would suggest you refrain from personal comments.  To everyone else, I completely understand the branding, approval, and other issues about patches, posters, prints, stickers and jackets.  I agree with the other comments and understand your opinions.  But, to me, the Boy Scouts of America has compromised the concrete foundation on which it was built, but the people in the High Tower still have time to review patches and disapprove designs because it contains a turtle with feathers.  The BSA chooses to control little things like that, but gives in to any whim or idea expressed by anyone with a voice.  The best recent example that I can think of is the building collapse in Miami.  If the foundation and supporting iron cracks, rusts, or otherwise rots away, the whole thing crashes down.  No amount of paint, putty, or shine can stop it from happening, and this is the sad reality.

Then you have been defending something you don’t understand. The Bill of Rights protects you/us from the government infringing on our government from infringing on our inalienable rights. Please stop communicating differently because it is not helpful….especially during these trying times in our country.  

[Mrjeff]

Please don't even think you know what I do or do not understand or be so pretentious as to tell me to do anything. I am allowed to voice my opinion and that is what I've done.  You don't have to agree but I do think you should keep your judgemental yet unsubstantiated comments to yourself.  My opinion is based on 50+ years of Scouting. I can legitimately claim 3 generations of Eagle Scouts, so I think I'm entitled to my opinion. There always is someone who gets their feathers ruffled and feels the need to say just how wrong someone else is or what they know 9r don't know.  Thank you for your opinion and feedback. 

[Mrjeff]

I didn't mention one of those things so I guess these changes bother you?  Another set of ruffled feathers.....my goodness! I voiced my opinion, weather you agree or disagree makes no difference to me but negative comments, guilt trips, or shaming won't change my opinion, but does help reinforce my thinking. Thank you for your feedback.

[CynicalScouter]

 

9 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I didn't mention one of those things so I guess these changes bother you?

Nope. I'm trying to understand what changes bother you and makes you think BSA in your words "gives in to any whim or idea expressed by anyone with a voice. "

I see you still refuse to answer that question, so I'll ask again.

What, exactly, is it you think is an example of BSA "giv[ing] in to any whim or idea expressed by anyone with a voice"?

Edited July 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

17 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

I am allowed to voice my opinion and that is what I've done.

Your opinion was that BSA (which is not a government entity) refusing to approve certain patches somehow violated the First Amendment and was "sensor"ing (I assume you mean censoring?)

7 hours ago, Mrjeff said:

Well, if that isn't infringing on the constitutional rights of freedom of speech and freedom of expression, I don't know what else is.

Given that the First Amendment prevents GOVERNMENT infringement of speech and GOVERNMENT infringement of expression (as opposed to that of a private entity such as BSA), your opinion is simply wrong.

You may have sworn to uphold the Constitution, including the First Amendment, but it is clear you don't understand it.

Edited July 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ALongWalk]

58 minutes ago, Mrjeff said:

Please don't even think you know what I do or do not understand or be so pretentious as to tell me to do anything. I am allowed to voice my opinion and that is what I've done.  You don't have to agree but I do think you should keep your judgemental yet unsubstantiated comments to yourself.  My opinion is based on 50+ years of Scouting. I can legitimately claim 3 generations of Eagle Scouts, so I think I'm entitled to my opinion. There always is someone who gets their feathers ruffled and feels the need to say just how wrong someone else is or what they know 9r don't know.  Thank you for your opinion and feedback. 

Do you really think the US Constitution protects you from the BSA saying you can’t design a patch with its logo as part of it? 

[MattR]

Okay, time for this thread to take a break.

[Mrjeff]

You're rigt and I apologize for causing such a "ruckus." The whole point of the analogies was to say that I think with the whole thing including loss of membership, increase in fees, dedicated Scouters with a whole lot of time, talents, and treasure invested are just walking away.  Such a shame.  You would think that "they" would have bigger and more pressing issues other then weather we can put feathers on a turtle, or not.

[qwazse]

If we can get past ad homenim. Some of us can recount discussions at length in other threads. In summary  …

American Adults rn up the price of old patches by selling them.

American Adults produced replicas of high-value patches, and flooded Jamborees with them.

American Adults demanded means of authentication, so that their Little Johnny wouldn’t be ripped off by making a “bad trade”. It wasn’t enough that their patch was pretty, it now had

In short, adults violated my rule #1. They asked for rules. BSA obliged by establishing a series of trademarks and methods of authentication.

The good news: I’ve seen WSJ scouts giving away patches without expecting anything in return. They’ve inspired me. It is now my life’s purpose to give away my patches to any clever youth anywhere. I don’t want there be any left for my family to throw in my casket.

[InquisitiveScouter]

5 hours ago, qwazse said:

I don’t want there be any left for my family to throw in my casket.

One of the prizes for our uniform inspection contests is you get to take one CSP from my collection   

[qwazse]

I guess, if @Mr. Jeff is willing to apologize for the "ruckus." I'll apologize for the nearly illegible post. I hope you all get the gist. If not, I will re-write.

But, I also want to be clear that WSJ didn't cure patch over-pricing. I also saw some scouters asking money for patches. I'm sure they were doing it because they knew someone would eventually give them their price.