Boy Scouts, Girl Scouts suffer huge declines in membership

[Eagledad]

40 minutes ago, yknot said:

One thing we have to keep in mind is that scouting teaches one kind of leadership model: top down. The rank advancement system is built around that. In most cases, it tends to recognize and reward confidence and self advocacy and not necessarily competency and good outcomes. Scouting loses a lot of kids during the transition from AOL to first year or two of troop, and I think leadership plays a role. I have seen a lot of good kids leave in that time frame because they need confidence building in order to learn more about leadership and scouts is often not a good place for certain kinds of kids to get that. They get steamrolled. I really feel like scouts has often put itself forward as a youth leadership program when in reality it often doesn't seem to really know that much about kids. It's more what adults think would be good for kids, and the further away it gets from focusing on the outdoors and outdoor skills, the worse it seems to get. And as I've said before, if scouting was that good at producing great leaders, we wouldn't have the kinds of organizational dysfunction and crises that have plagued it for the past few decades because BSA is basically led by scouts. 

I don't agree at all. Fist year scout dropout rate is the highest of all ages, but not from leadership, it's from the sudden cultural change of following adult guidance to self responsibility. 

I certainly don't agree that the organizations disjunctions are from boy led scouting. I'm not even sure what that means. Leadership development is not about developing great leaders, but developing leaders to use the values of the Oath and Law in the decision making process. Basically a servant style leadership. 

Barry

[Eagle94-A1]

37 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I don't agree at all. Fist year scout dropout rate is the highest of all ages, but not from leadership, it's from the sudden cultural change of following adult guidance to self responsibility. 

Quote

 I think leadership plays a role. 

I think both you and @yknot are on to something

Leadership does indeed play a role, but it is the CUB SCOUT, or more specifically WEBELOS LEVEL (emphasis) adult leadership, and not the Scouts BSA level. If things are happening elsewhere as I have seen them happening locally, and from some of the pushback I get for my advice on other forums I believe it is a national problem, Webelos leaders are not making the transition from Cub Scouts to Scouts BSA. Webelos leaders are NOT helping to transition from adult lead to self responsibility like the Webelos Program was intended. Thus when the new Scouts and their parents join a troop they are overwhelmed.

When Webelos leaders do their jobs properly, the Webelos are ready for the transition. And more importantly the parents. When my old troop had a Webelos Castaway Adventure Overnighter, two different Webelos Dens from two different packs showed up. One den began the transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts as soon as the Cubs became Webelos. The WDL and AWDL started to slowly began giving responsibility to the Webelos, and kept reminding the parents to let the Scouts do it themselves. The other den kept treating the Webelos like Cub Scouts, with the parents still doing things for their kids. On the camp out, the first den had their members complete their survival shelters and started cooking their meals before the second den's parents even completed the group shelter. Yep the parents built the shelter, not the kids. After congratulating themselves on the group survival shelter, the second den left while the first den stayed behind and had fun. That was 5 years ago. 100% ( 10 Scouts)  of the first den is still involved in Scouting. Out of the second den, 80% (8 Scouts) left between  3 and 12 months, and a 9th Scout left within 2 years. Only one remains. And he and his parents had an extremely hard time adjusting to the differences between Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA.

And IMHO, National is not helping them matter. Not only is the online training inadequate, but also they are mandating that before you can work on AOL required badges, you must earn the Webelos badge. So  You now you cannot earn the Scouting Adventure badge until March of 4th grade at the earliest for most packs that start up in September. They really need to begin the transition in September of 4th grade, during the summer between 3rd and 4th if you are meeting.

 

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I think both you and @yknot are on to something

Leadership does indeed play a role, but it is the CUB SCOUT, or more specifically WEBELOS LEVEL (emphasis) adult leadership, and not the Scouts BSA level. If things are happening elsewhere as I have seen them happening locally, and from some of the pushback I get for my advice on other forums I believe it is a national problem, Webelos leaders are not making the transition from Cub Scouts to Scouts BSA. Webelos leaders are NOT helping to transition from adult lead to self responsibility like the Webelos Program was intended. Thus when the new Scouts and their parents join a troop they are overwhelmed.

When Webelos leaders do their jobs properly, the Webelos are ready for the transition. And more importantly the parents. When my old troop had a Webelos Castaway Adventure Overnighter, two different Webelos Dens from two different packs showed up. One den began the transition from Cub Scouts to Boy Scouts as soon as the Cubs became Webelos. The WDL and AWDL started to slowly began giving responsibility to the Webelos, and kept reminding the parents to let the Scouts do it themselves. The other den kept treating the Webelos like Cub Scouts, with the parents still doing things for their kids. On the camp out, the first den had their members complete their survival shelters and started cooking their meals before the second den's parents even completed the group shelter. Yep the parents built the shelter, not the kids. After congratulating themselves on the group survival shelter, the second den left while the first den stayed behind and had fun. That was 5 years ago. 100% ( 10 Scouts)  of the first den is still involved in Scouting. Out of the second den, 80% (8 Scouts) left between  3 and 12 months, and a 9th Scout left within 2 years. Only one remains. And he and his parents had an extremely hard time adjusting to the differences between Cub Scouts and Scouts BSA.

And IMHO, National is not helping them matter. Not only is the online training inadequate, but also they are mandating that before you can work on AOL required badges, you must earn the Webelos badge. So  You now you cannot earn the Scouting Adventure badge until March of 4th grade at the earliest for most packs that start up in September. They really need to begin the transition in September of 4th grade, during the summer between 3rd and 4th if you are meeting.

 

Well in that context, I agree with you and Ynot.

Barry

Edited July 12, 2021 by Eagledad

[Sentinel947]

7 hours ago, Navybone said:

A nuanced comment on your assessment on teaching leadership, based on my experience (MBA and senior military leader) - leadership is learned by doing (being in a position of leadership) and having a mentor or guide to help develop the individuals leadership skills.   My concern and experience with naturally learning is that poor leadership skills that create results can be the the wrong lessons learned.  What I mean by this are use of yelling, fear, intimidation, threats, etc. and learning that those type of toxic leadership methods can be successful to get objectives met.  

That was me as a Scout. Very aggressive, authoritarian leadership. That's what I'd seen modelled in sports, band and in school. My Scout leaders didn't really correct me, because I got stuff done. I'd like to think I had the Troop and the Scouts best interests at heart, but my methods were still toxic. My friends joked that I put the "dick" in dictator. When I was 15, I attended NYLT, and it opened my eyes to the principle of Servant Leadership. That personal experience is what has made me such a strong supporter of NYLT. Like any BSA training, it's not a perfect syllabus, and the people who implement and conduct the training aren't perfect either, but it had a huge impact on who I've become. 

5 hours ago, yknot said:

"One thing we have to keep in mind is that scouting teaches one kind of leadership model: top down. The rank advancement system is built around that"...... "And as I've said before, if scouting was that good at producing great leaders, we wouldn't have the kinds of organizational dysfunction and crises that have plagued it for the past few decades because BSA is basically led by scouts."

There can always be a gap between design and common outcome. As this forum has harped on, the BSA doesn't do a particularly good job teaching how things are supposed to be done, and much of how Scout units operate is down to local unit historical practices.  I don't agree that Scouting is designed to teach top down leadership. When I think of Scouting leadership, I think of the Scouts electing patrol leaders to serve the interests of the patrol, and the SPL as a facilitator to help the Patrol leaders come to a consensus. I'm not sure how you define top down, but if you consider the patrol method top down, what organizations and institutions in American life aren't top down? 

I'm curious what the percentage of BSA pros were Scouts as youth, or BSA volunteers as adults. Given the long hours and terrible pay for BSA pros, I imagine talented leaders would look elsewhere for employment, since leadership ability is a very valuable set of soft skills. Regardless, the conduct of many pros and volunteers in their day to day interactions or historically (hopefully not ongoing) abuse cases does lend a thick layer of hypocrisy to the claiming of the mantle of leadership. 

[Eagle94-A1]

This is anecdotal and hearsay, but from my perspective it appears dead on.

The ones with the youth experience tend to leave, and the "good" DEs have no prior experience. I know when I eas a DE, most of us with youth experience left due to frustration. We did not see our upper management living the Oath and Law. We became disillusioned with the movement. And talking to other former pros, that has been their experience as well.

Hearsay is what one high level council pro once told me: the best DEs and pros have no youth experience.  They have no preconceived notions of thd job, and are "objective" when it comes to goals. 

[SiouxRanger]

On 7/1/2021 at 1:48 PM, fred8033 said:

Probably re-hashing a really old argument yet another time.  ... I agree that we don't need to keep re-imaging BSA and the programs.  I would say though that I disagree on the strengths.  I feel like a church member who still has faith, but is now questioning one of the long-promised values. 

Leadership.  I just don't think troops teach it well.  I question focusing on leadership.  I question encouraging adults to teach leadership.  Scouts will learn leadership naturally by trying to get their scouts out doing things.  Be active, etc.  

I never wanted my scouts to be in scouting because of "leadership".   Sure it might become a side benefit.  I wanted them in it to do things I would not do with them on my own.  Or skills I did not have at that time.  ... To also build life-long friendships.   To get experiences.  To be more independent of me.  But, "leadership".  I'm not sure I would join BSA to get my kid to learn leadership.

I have never been terribly impressed with the level of training offered by BSA-at every level.  The concept is sound: "Let Boys Lead."  But there is no level of guidance/instruction to the boys who are to lead. (Just spent last Sunday reading an Eagle Court of Honor ceremony script, translating on the fly, "he" to "the scout" to adjust for female scouts.)

How does one "lead?"  Well, there are skills and techniques, establish your role as leader, gain the attention of the audience, control the agenda/meeting schedule stick to the schedule, delegate, encourage others, etc.

That is taught at NYLT, formerly JLT (in my day), but that is taught only to senior scouts.  Until a scout attends NYLT, they are on their own.  A huge time gap  between patrol leader and an NYLT trained scout. I know of no leadership materials available to scouts before that unless in some manual, which I have not seen nor seen in my Troop.  If available, not commonly available, as I have not seen it since 1995 when my youngest started in Boy Scouts.

I recently completed Wood Badge, and though interesting, had little leadership substance.  The Ticket Items I completed had value to the targeted audience.

I just have to say that I see a huge disconnect between "training" and its usefulness as implemented in the BSA.

And as a life-long scout, camp staffer, scout parent, scouter, cub pack chairperson, troop chairperson, council executive board member, and many other positions, I'd really like to Scouting be successful.

[InquisitiveScouter]

8 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

 I know of no leadership materials available to scouts before that unless in some manual, which I have not seen nor seen in my Troop.  

@SiouxRanger and others, please read Section 1 of your Scout Handbook

The model is there...

[Eagledad]

9 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

I just have to say that I see a huge disconnect between "training" and its usefulness as implemented in the BSA.

And as a life-long scout, camp staffer, scout parent, scouter, cub pack chairperson, troop chairperson, council executive board member, and many other positions, I'd really like to Scouting be successful.

I agree with the disconnect of training. There are resources, or were until recently, the scouts could use to run their program. The BSA published the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook 20 years ago that was pretty good at giving scouts direction in leading and managing their program without additional training. Strangely, I never saw it encouraged by National, Council, or district in adult training. But, I knew their value and I required the adults to purchase those handbooks for my adult classes, and I even purchased several to give out to new Scoutmasters. I also required them for our troop, district and council level Junior Leader Training courses. Don't tell my wife, our finances were tight at the time.

I have said here many times that I believe that both the adults and scouts could run the correct troop patrol method program if they used just the PL Handbook, SPL Handbook and Scout Handbook as the program guideline. Imagine the PL or SPL giving the SM a page reference in the Handbook they all use of why they doing what they are doing. They handbooks have pretty clear instructions for the basic framework of the program. They may give the scouts good direction for their unit or patrol, but they also hold the adults in check for their part in the process.

Adult leader training could fill in more of how to work with scout behavior in a boy run troop environment. The two most asked questions in my courses requesting help in of dealing with scouts was discipline of bad behavior and uniform. At first those two questions seem like a strange pairing. But both are dealing with scouts making independent choices.

Giving young inexperienced adults the freedom to make their own choices is challenging for adults because parents in general don't like their kids making bad choices. The adult instinct is to confront bad decisions head on and quickly. The problem there is that when the adult confronts a scouts bad decision without dealing with they why the scout made the bad decision, they are telling the scout they are a bad person instead of encouraging them to look at why they made the choice. Of course had behavior has to be confronted, but the person should admit the behavior and make their own choice to change. And you know, once in a while the adult finds out that the scout didn't make a wrong choice, it just wasn't the choice the adult would have made.

The uniform is actually much more challenging because the scout has decided wearing a uniform properly isn't important and a wrong choice is acceptable. The leader has to reason with the scout's acceptance that some wrong decisions are acceptable. It's not about the uniform, it's about the acceptance of purposing making wrong decisions.  This is the area where adults could use additional training. 

Barry

Edited July 13, 2021 by Eagledad

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, Eagledad said:

I have said here many times that I believe that both the adults and scouts could run the correct troop patrol method program if they used just the PL Handbook, SPL Handbook and Scout Handbook as the program guideline.

Preach it, brother!!

2 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

And you know, once in a while the adult finds out that the scout didn't make a wrong choice, it just wasn't the choice the adult would have made.

This is the same with parents   For adult leaders, take a moment and ask yourself, "How would this decision violate the Scout Oath or Law?"  If you do not come up with an answer that you can reason through and articulate to another adult, give the Scout the leeway to pursue.

And yes, you will often be tempted to say "I've seen this a hundred times, and it never works out, so do it the way I recommending to you."  Don't.  Pick your battles wisely. Bite your cheek, swallow the blood, and resist the "I told you so" when the time comes.  Your Scout will grow, and will grow to respect you and your advice even more

[mrjohns2]

8 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I have said here many times that I believe that both the adults and scouts could run the correct troop patrol method program if they used just the PL Handbook, SPL Handbook and Scout Handbook as the program guideline. Imagine the PL or SPL giving the SM a page reference in the Handbook they all use of why they doing what they are doing. They handbooks have pretty clear instructions for the basic framework of the program. They may give the scouts good direction for their unit or patrol, but they also hold the adults in check for their part in the process.

I have been thinking about giving our SPL & PLs the handbooks when they are elected. Have you read the current editions? Are they reasonable? Or is there a reason to go back to the older editions? I often hear that the 50 year old SM handbook gets at these things better than the current "Unit Leader Guide Vol 1 & Vol 2". 

[InquisitiveScouter]

13 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I have been thinking about giving our SPL & PLs the handbooks when they are elected.

Yes, do.

But the same essential problems rear their head:

1.  No one reads.  (This includes adults.)

2.  Many do not learn from reading.  (This includes adults.)

When I give rides to Scouting events, we always use the drive time productively.  Scouts who want to cover requirements, discuss merit badges, troop or patrol business, often jump in the car with me and the SPL/ASPL.   I point the way, and the SPL/ASPL or senior Scout does the instruction and sign off...it is a beautiful thing.

The Scout/SPL/PL Handbooks (my personal copies) are staple items during the ride.  We often read aloud short sections and discuss the content, examples, and how to teach or apply.  We set goals. We evaluate outcomes. We review progress, on individual, patrol, or troop levels.

However, and here is my challenge to all adult leaders...You have to know your stuff.  Read the dang things yourselves, so you know what the heck you are talking about.  You don't have to know the answers, but you do have to know WHERE to find the answers.  The literature becomes the authority rather than you becoming the authority.  In time, they can and do look for the answers themselves.  Then they don't need you anymore (for the most part  )

Edited July 13, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter

[CynicalScouter]

6 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Or is there a reason to go back to the older editions?

Some of the older editions are outdated. For example, the appendix to the old (and still on the website) Troop Leader Guidebook allows for patrols to go off on their own without adult supervision.
https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/512-150_appendix(15)_web.pdf

Quote

Question: When can a patrol day hike or service project without adult supervision be allowed?

Answer: With proper training, guidance, and approval by the troop leaders, as long as they follow these two rules...

Of course under today's YPT and Guide to Safe Scouting, the answer to "When can a patrol day hike or service project without adult supervision be allowed?" the answer is "Never".

https://www.scouting.org/health-and-safety/gss/gss01/

Quote

Adult Supervision

Two registered adult leaders 21 years of age or over are required at all Scouting activities, including meetings.

 

[qwazse]

20 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

... However, and here is my challenge to all adult leaders...You have to know your stuff.  Read the dang things yourselves, so you know what the heck you are talking about.  You don't have to know the answers, but you do have to know WHERE to find the answers.  The literature becomes the authority rather than you becoming the authority.  In time, they can and do look for the answers themselves.  Then they don't need you anymore (for the most part  )

Are you saying that EDGE is not enough to teach a scout skill? That a referencing is essential, and any method that omits it falls woefully short? Heretic!

[InquisitiveScouter]

3 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Are you saying that EDGE is not enough to teach a scout skill? That a referencing is essential, and any method that omits it falls woefully short? Heretic!

Almost

I would contend that referencing is a tool in the toolbox for the "E" in EDGE.  Don't always have to use it, but I do in most cases. 

Also think the "E" should include explaining WHY we do things, versus just the HOW.  Why do we wash our dishes this way?  Why do we use a particular knot?  Why do we go 200 feet away to dig our cathole?  Why do we use the EDGE method???? 🤪😜🤪

Most people respond better to learning when they know the "why."  Gives them a sense of purpose more than just "Because that is the requirement!" yuck...

[DuctTape]

I advocate for the Fieldbook as a primary resource too. Especially the first one. I often find copies of these at garage sales for $1. I have mentioned in the past a patrol could go page by page with the original fieldbook and lead a fantastic program.