Chapter 11 Announced - Part 4 Revised Plan

[ThenNow]

47 minutes ago, David CO said:

No.  You are not seriously asking the question.  

Those of us who were around in those days know that the cultural norms of the day were different.  We lived through it.  We remember how it was. 

Ok. I give. You must be right. I thought perhaps something was missing from what we’ve heard all the other times. Fear not. I’ve been resoundingly put in my place. Or not. Never mind.

Um. If, let’s say for gee whiz sake, a Boy Scout was sexually abused by his SM (and technically others) at the ripe old age of age 10 in 1972. Just to pick a random scenario. Did that fella live through this mystical period of laissez faire attitudes toward child molestation? To this question, I mostly certain request the honor of your reply. A lot of people were “alive” in this timeframe. Some of us actually “lived through” it. Big difference.

[SiouxRanger]

If it would not be too much trouble, and I suspect this has been discussed at length long before my time here, could someone itemize the basic elements of  the "cultural norms differences" back when as compared to now? A paragraph or two just setting out the basics-what is allegedly different now compared to then?.

[ThenNow]

25 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

A paragraph or two just setting out the basics-what is allegedly different now compared to then?.

I’m looking forward to understanding precisely what I lived through, in addition to child sexual abuse. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by ThenNow

[johnsch322]

3 hours ago, David CO said:

Those of us who were around in those days know that the cultural norms of the day were different.  We lived through it.  We remember how it was.  

I am pretty sure that cultural norms of the time wasn't:

Hey did you hear about Joe down the street?  He abused the little Smith boy.  Oh yeah well lets make sure the police don't know about that!! 

 

Edited August 4, 2021 by johnsch322
I was just using a hypothetical name. My bad.

[David CO]

14 hours ago, johnsch322 said:

I am pretty sure that cultural norms of the time wasn't:

Hey did you hear about Joe down the street?  He raped the little Smith boy.  Oh yeah well lets make sure the police don't know about that!!

Please don't use my name in your hypothetical stories about rape.  I don't think it was coincidental, since you were responding to my post.  Using my name in that way is insulting and unscoutlike.

Edited August 4, 2021 by elitts

[David CO]

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

Ok. I give. You must be right. I thought perhaps something was missing from what we’ve heard all the other times. Fear not. I’ve been resoundingly put in my place. Or not. Never mind.

Um. If, let’s say for gee whiz sake, a Boy Scout was sexually abused by his SM (and technically others) at the ripe old age of age 10 in 1972. Just to pick a random scenario. Did that fella live through this mystical period of laissez faire attitudes toward child molestation? To this question, I mostly certain request the honor of your reply. A lot of people were “alive” in this timeframe. Some of us actually “lived through” it. Big difference.

I think you have proven my point.  You ask for a reply.  You say you are serious.  Then you respond with smart aleck remarks.  I can't have a serious conversation with you. 

 

[johnsch322]

13 minutes ago, David CO said:

Please don't use my name in your hypothetical stories about rape.  I don't think it was coincidental, since you were responding to my post.  Using my name in that way is insulting and unscoutlike.

I change the wording to abuse I hope that makes what happened to myself and countless others more palatable. It kind of like saying "cultural norms of the day were different" makes it everything that happened appear to be a little more normal...kind of like acceptable almost. 

[ThenNow]

9 minutes ago, David CO said:

I think you have proven my point.  You ask for a reply.  You say you are serious.  Then you respond with smart aleck remarks.  I can't have a serious conversation with you. 

Not at all because your point, which was to say I didn’t want a reply, was inaccurate. It’s seems to me you’re having a lovely conversation with yourself, serious or otherwise. From past experience, I’m using humor to diffuse not the seriousness of my replies or to diminish you, but to mask the degree of upset I have with your presumptions and mind reading. I asked if there was something else we’ve yet to hear. Simple question and others are asking it, as well. 

[skeptic]

For the most part, this subject was hushed and Not discussed, and authorities also chose to not believe or make excuses because so and so was a good guy, as most knew.  Parents often chose to not press the issue due to the embarrassment and community tendency to call it he said, he said or it is a kid making things up.  It was not right, but that was the world most of us live in.  Now, when it did actually get beyond the disbelief and was taken seriously, the laws were not yet particularly strong, and reinforced to some extent the idea of not believing.  Again, unless their was absolute proof, it was not taken as seriously as it should have been, just like rape of women and even spousal abuse.  So, today, we are trying to fix something that cannot be fixed, and doing it at the expense, for the most part. the current youth in the program, and even the mental state of the victims.  I think that it what most of us that are so awful are referring to as different standards.  None of us thinks it should have been brushed aside, but few thought about it the way it is looked at today.  Bye, no more attempt to explain.

[johnsch322]

17 minutes ago, skeptic said:

For the most part, this subject was hushed and Not discussed, and authorities also chose to not believe or make excuses because so and so was a good guy, as most knew.  Parents often chose to not press the issue due to the embarrassment and community tendency to call it he said, he said or it is a kid making things up.  It was not right, but that was the world most of us live in.  Now, when it did actually get beyond the disbelief and was taken seriously, the laws were not yet particularly strong, and reinforced to some extent the idea of not believing.  Again, unless their was absolute proof, it was not taken as seriously as it should have been, just like rape of women and even spousal abuse.  So, today, we are trying to fix something that cannot be fixed, and doing it at the expense, for the most part. the current youth in the program, and even the mental state of the victims.  I think that it what most of us that are so awful are referring to as different standards.  None of us thinks it should have been brushed aside, but few thought about it the way it is looked at today.  Bye, no more attempt to explain.

The files were kept secret until 2012 when the Oregon Supreme Court ordered them to made public.  That is only 9 years ago.  Was it a different time in 1981, or 1991, or 2001, or 2011?  The Boy Scouts of America did not advocate to it's membership to go to the police when knowledge of abuse happened period. There were congressional hearings in 1973 and child sexual abuse was part of the hearing.  Yes in the latest incident with the videotaping the police were called but I would bet you donuts to dollars if the pressure wasn't on the BSA it would have been covered up like so many other incidents.  One other thing I would like to say is please do not use the line "at the expense, for the most part. the current youth in the program".  In my opinion it makes the current youth to be victims of the survivors when if anything what the are losing is due to the past and recent leadership of the BSA.

[Oldscout448]

Circa 1980 a young(21) ASM was thankfully interrupted while doing extremely inappropriate things with two young (11) scouts.  Parents were called. Police were called. Council was called. 

The parents refused to press charges, and tearfully begged the Scouters NOT to let any one else know. " For the boys sake"  

So what were we to do? 

Personally I wanted to beat the perp within an inch of his life, not just see him kicked out of Scouting.  But I figured that the parents had the right to have the first crack at him, and if they declined in order to protect their children from the social stigma which was sadly the case for victims back then, then I had no right to 

 

[johnsch322]

34 minutes ago, Oldscout448 said:

So what were we to do?

In this situation you did the correct thing by calling the police but were the two boys offered paid for counseling/therapy to help them overcome the trauma that they endured?  I wonder if they are now part of the 82,000 claimants? I also wonder how many other young boys did he abuse in and out of the BSA?  Unfortunately too often the acts were not interrupted and when they did come to light the abusers were not reported to the authorities. 

In my personal situation at least 11 boys were suspected or known to have been abused but for some reason no one ever asked me.  

I would like to add one more thing.  Were the other scouters in the troop individually and privately asked if this ASM had ever done something similar to them?  It would have been rare that the ASM was caught the first time.  Was all of the parents of the scouts in that troop made aware of what had happened? Was the ASM ever involved with another troop before this incident and or did he have access to young boys from other troops?

Edited August 4, 2021 by johnsch322
Questions came to mind

[Oldscout448]

Concerning this specific case I know only a few more details since the victims immediately dropped out they didn't desire any contact with the troop and I had to respect that.   I was told that the scouts family moved away within  a few months, but I don't know if it was motivated by the abuse or unrelated.  I also wonder if they are among the 82,000.  

As to the ex-ASM he completely dropped off the local radar screen. Which was wise considering that there were quite a number of young men in the area who would have liked nothing more than to meet him in a dark alley somewhere.  Or even a brightly lit street. He had brought unbelievable shame and dishonor to the eagle badge and our order. Much more importantly we considered the young scouts as our little brothers. 

I did talk to three Scouters from other troops who had gone through some training courses with him.  "Just plain Weird, a bit strange, and decidedly odd" were the words they used.  Telling that in his own troop, the one he grew up in, he always acted perfectly normal.

Yes, the other scouts were asked. And we asked every parent in the troop if their sons had said or done anything that in hindsight sounded at all as if something had happened.  From what we could glean that horrible night was the only case.   

I suppose I'm trying to say that we did everything we could think of, everything the authorities of the day recommend, and yet by today's standards we fell short. I guess since what happened did happen we did indeed fail those two scouts. But it wasn't for lack of trying or caring. Which is why I get so angry when I'm told that we Scouters only cared about your organizations reputation.

Edited August 4, 2021 by Oldscout448

[SiouxRanger]

4 hours ago, skeptic said:

For the most part, this subject was hushed and Not discussed, and authorities also chose to not believe or make excuses because so and so was a good guy, as most knew.  Parents often chose to not press the issue due to the embarrassment and community tendency to call it he said, he said or it is a kid making things up.  It was not right, but that was the world most of us live in.  Now, when it did actually get beyond the disbelief and was taken seriously, the laws were not yet particularly strong, and reinforced to some extent the idea of not believing.  Again, unless their was absolute proof, it was not taken as seriously as it should have been, just like rape of women and even spousal abuse.  So, today, we are trying to fix something that cannot be fixed, and doing it at the expense, for the most part. the current youth in the program, and even the mental state of the victims.  I think that it what most of us that are so awful are referring to as different standards.  None of us thinks it should have been brushed aside, but few thought about it the way it is looked at today.  Bye, no more attempt to explain.

Your summary of "cultural norms differences" is what I thought it might be.  Thank you. It comports with my sense of how those matters were treated then.

And I wonder to what degree these matters today are still treated that way-or subject to those same societal pressures..  Even in these more "enlightened" times, look at the emotional energy expended by abuse survivors to overcome their own emotional inertia to step forward to be heard, and the push back from the alleged perpetrator, and the glare of the spotlight created by media exposure of their claim.

I would surmise that not all "authority groups" have advanced at the same pace in their growing awareness of and response to such claims.  Parents perhaps lag way behind, whereas law enforcement, social workers/counselors, legislatures, and the judiciary are further along in their enlightenment.  It is a halting, uneven, and messy process.

 

[CynicalScouter]

On 7/1/2021 at 7:23 PM, CynicalScouter said:

The Settlement Trustee shall be Eric D. Green and will be appointed by the Bankruptcy Court. I assume it is this Eric D. Green. http://www.acctm.org/egreen/

Following up on this:

The Insurance companies are now demanding Green's company (Resolutions, LLC) produce any and all documents related to their interactions with the FCR (in particular), the BSA, TCC, and Coalition.

They issued a subpoena yesterday.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/726423f6-16d4-45ab-b601-74f958a938fa_5866.pdf