Chapter 11 Announced - Part 4 Revised Plan

[johnsch322]

5 minutes ago, skeptic said:

And there lies the rub.  Any suggestion that there might be some lack of accuity over time is somehow blaming the victim.  We saw that in the deplorable side show in the Kavanaugh hearings.  I am not yet senile enough to not continue to see the probability of some enhancements over time of traumatic and also amusing incidents in life.  So, let me go back to being a skeptical realist, trying to see through the glass clearly when the prism is clouded.  Nuf said.

 

Let me be realistic to you. I live and have lived for 54 years with the abuse upon my body and soul. I told not one person for 52 of those years what happened to me. I had fistulas next to my anus which started in my 20’s. My doctor said it was from anal penetration and was surprised when I said I wasn’t gay. Till this day stool leaks thru as my sphincter had to be cut. The Boy Scout files have 5 documents relating to my perpetrator and one of them says that they suspected he abused 11 to 13 others in my troop. Not once did they reach out to me to find out if I had been abused and if they could offer any help. That was the Boy Scout way. 

[yknot]

13 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

II can only assume the technology is out there to detect hidden surveillance cameras, but that camp staffs now are placed in this position of monitoring and the time involved.

Perhaps we are at the point that 18 to 20 year olds, who are not only in the midst of grappling with their own emotional transition into adulthood, and all the emotional awkwardness that involves, but are also now burdened with monitoring and supervising adults 10, 20 or 30 years their senior.

Lotta drug detection dogs out of work due to the decriminalization of marijuana... perhaps a new career path. Camp deputy dog.

 

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

The Boy Scout files have 5 documents relating to my perpetrator and one of them says that they suspected he abused 11 to 13 others in my troop.

How close in time to your abuse was the record created?

1 hour ago, johnsch322 said:

Not once did they reach out to me to find out if I had been abused and if they could offer any help. That was the Boy Scout way. 

I first reported the abuse to BSA via letter in 2008. That was preceded by my effort to have him investigated by local law enforcement in 2002/3. (I talk about that well back in the forum.) I sent the letter to a LC (not mine but where I lived at the time), as well as to National. I named my abuser, the years and my certainty he had abused others after me. Crickets. When I filed my claim, I called the legal department where I understood these records were kept and they not only said in so many words that I didn’t send the letter, but they also said his name did not appear in their records. 2008 is not ancient history before records were kept. The letter was above my signature and I included my BSA credentials, the LC and my Troop. How does that happen?

Edited August 1, 2021 by ThenNow

[johnsch322]

On 6/29/2021 at 9:19 AM, fred8033 said:

Me too.  I have no magical hat either.  BUT, it seems like we are in for some type of mapping / tracking of insurer paid versus victim was in which org and when.  Same reasoning as property sales from a LC would get allocated to a specific set of scouts that was victimized from that area and not for all 84,000 scouts in the case.  ... Some policies will have limits.  Some won't have umbrella coverage for these cases.  I'm sure will be pooled as similar coverage.

Is the real question ... is there one or two major insurers for this whole thing?  Is it really just Chubb and (???) for most of BSA and the LCs?  Or are there other insurers involved.  Are there different COIs involved?  The 1970 COI has no limit versus 1980s has a limit per case and the 1990s has a overall limit per policy?  

It seems like a mess to 

Edited August 1, 2021 by johnsch322
Wrong post replied to.

[David CO]

56 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

The tenor of questioning both a recounting in a widely circulated press outlet and by implication us, isn’t just a random assertion about faulty memory or impure motive. You put the stink on us, as well. 

Ironic.  Some people turned a blind eye to child sexual abuse in scouting because they feared that exposing these crimes would, by implication, tarnish the reputations of good scouters.  Now we are being told that we can't question the statements of anyone who claims to have been abused in scouting because exposing a few fraudulent claims might, by implication, subject those victims who were actually abused in scouting to false accusations of dishonesty.

No.  The stink is not on us.

[ThenNow]

9 minutes ago, David CO said:

Now we are being told that we can't question the statements of anyone who claims to have been abused in scouting because exposing a few fraudulent claims might, by implication, subject those victims who were actually abused in scouting to false accusations of dishonesty.

Not by me. I’ve repeatedly and passionately talked about my concern over fraud among the claims. It doesn’t delegitimize me, my abuse or my claim. My concern has been, as stated, letting the insurers’ (camels’) nose so far under and into the tent that there is premature and inappropriate questioning of legitimate claims. I’ve been pretty specific about this.

 

12 minutes ago, David CO said:

No.  The stink is not on us.

This, I can agree with because you are not the “us” I mentioned. I forgive you for not reading carefully as you prepared to respond. I’ve done the same.

[MikeS72]

23 minutes ago, skeptic said:

 

No, we should not be going back there, we should be trying to determine the truth.  As noted, the way the article is written, it is almost impossible to see it as not exaggerated at least.  HOW could someone be repeatedly abused and  subjected to being put in a shallow grave and urinated upon by the group without any of it coming out?  Something happened to traumatize him, but the level of depravity, while possible, seems almost beyond the pale.  Maybe I am simply too much of a skeptic, and have seen too many stories that have been "stretched" for whatever reason, to not see some doubt in this article.  But, I also suspect there is a level of authenticity, and real trauma incurred.  But, he does suggest that the issue needs to be addressed on a broader, societal level, which is good.  As another poster noted, there is a huge misconception of how much BSA can pay, as well as a segment that cares not that the overall program still carries far more benefit than negativity, especially with the more updated systems.  NONE of it will or can ever be perfect and a guarantee against the worst in society, but it can be close to it if the programs added for protection are followed and constantly improved as new info and tech becomes available.  

I read the entire article.  It does have a link to an article in the New York Daily News, from December of 2019.  It appears that he started out as one of Kosnoff's early cases, however, a footnote at the end of the article said he is now represented by a different firm; one that pretty much everyone in FL is familiar with - won't say anything else about that particular law firm.  Based on that 2019 article, this took place in New Jersey, sometime in the early to mid 1970's.

I fully support the many people who have posted here who are a part of the bankruptcy case, and know that for many of those were abused, either sexually, or as appears to be the case here, physically, no one was ever told what happened.  I understand that, and am not indicating that not speaking out at the time of the abuse has anything to do with whether the case is valid.

As Skeptic stated however; I am incredulous that someone was forced to strip, rolled up in a carpet, and locked in a closet for an entire weekend, and no one was aware it happened (or that he did not, thank God, suffocate).  I also wonder how his troop could have burned his clothing at summer camp without anyone finding out, if not during the week, certainly when he came home unclothed.  Did his parents not notice the lack of clothing they sent him to camp in?  Was there not at least one member of his troop that was troubled by seeing this happen, who would have reported it to someone, or talked about to someone else, even if bragging?

Looking at the things he is asking for in the article:

1.  The morally straight action now would be for the BSA to stand up, admit their wrongdoing, and set up a fair compensation fund for survivors.  - That is what all of the negotiations and mediation will hopefully lead to

2.  We need required, thourough and ongoing background checks for all adults supervising children in any capacity. - BSA does, and has for quite a while, required background checks of all registered leaders.  A couple of years ago we had to sign an updated background check authorization form, which gives BSA the ability to run regular background checks on registered leaders, not just the initial check.

3.  Abuse investigations must be handled by outside authorities, and we need broader and more strictly enforced mandatory reporting laws.  All BSA leaders and professionals are mandatory reporters.  As we saw with the camera case discussed in the past few days, mandatory reporting resulted in an arrest and very aggressive bail for the perpetrator.

4.  The BSA owes children and their families meaningful reforms to increase transparency and accountability for individuals who commit unspeakable acts.  Agree fully here.  As I stated in an earlier post, I support efforts to have a public accounting of any case going forward.

5.  People who bully, whether they do so sexually or otherwise, should be immediately removed, charged, and blacklisted from the BSA and any position that puts them in close proximity to children – there should be no second chances for anyone.   Bullying behavior is already a YPT violation on it's own, and when reported can result in the individuals being banned from Scouting.  Bullying such as what he describes in the article should also result in at least charges of child endangerment.

6.  The Boy Scouts should also fund third-party counseling of children abused within their organization.  - This has been discussed here on many occasions.  BSA has offered to pay for counseling for any victim, at the therapist of their choice.  This has been available for a while now, and based on what we were told more than a year ago, has been done to the tune of millions.

7.  While no amount of money can make me or any other survivor “whole,” a meager payout that lets the Boy Scouts walk away will be a devastating blow. True justice in this case is impossible, but bankruptcy is the coward’s way out. The BSA has the funds to pay victims fairly, and they should.  - As was also stated in an earlier post, I am not sure what result would be acceptable to him.  Knowing the firm that currently represents him however, I would not be surprised if he was not initially made to think that there would be vastly more money coming to him than would be available even with the total liquidation of all BSA assets, both at the national and local levels.

8.  The BSA has tried to silence me since I was 10 years old, and I won’t stay quiet anymore.  -  Not saying here that he is at fault at all for not speaking out almost 50 years ago, however, I do not see how BSA could have tried to silence him since he was 10 years old over something they were not aware happened...

I know that bad things happened to a lot of boys, and that for many, reliving that now is traumatic.  I hope that whatever the final outcome of the bankruptcy, that all survivors get some measure of compensation, and some measure of relief from what I know has been years of suffering.

 

 

[johnsch322]

16 minutes ago, David CO said:

Ironic.  Some people turned a blind eye to child sexual abuse in scouting because they feared that exposing these crimes would, by implication, tarnish the reputations of good scouters.  Now we are being told that we can't question the statements of anyone who claims to have been abused in scouting because exposing a few fraudulent claims might, by implication, subject those victims who were actually abused in scouting to false accusations of dishonesty.

No.  The stink is not on us.

The blind eye was turned not because it would tarnish good scouters instead it was turned because they didn’t want to tarnish the reputation of the national organization Boy Scouts of America. The stink is on all those who facilitated the carrying out of that policy. 

[Life]

Ugh. Rather than reply to a particular post I’ll just put in on the thread. I’m an amateur at best when it comes to forums. 
 

first I’ll state again how I am much impressed with the level of maturity from the survivors responses here. Seeings how most of us are stunted in many ways and have had to fight to learn How to communicate on this topic. And survivors we are. 
 

There is no need to victim blame / shame either. We have done that to our selves for all the years that led up to this. 
 

Ohh… the things we have gone through on this road that was thrust upon us. From 15 to my early 20’s ( after the abuse and recall settled in) I was in a constant state of terror! Shame, guilt, identity confusion, as well a loss of sense of self. Did I exist, or was I a non entity? Add not being able to separate terror from natural sexual feelings. The only reason I survived is I had a human spirit that woke up and became able to keep going. But I didn’t want to. 
 

my abuses were reported. Due to the nature of this case and my own sensitivity I’ll leave it at that. 
 

ive been fighting this for a long long time. I do not want other kids to suffer at any end of this. I want this problem solved!!!! 
 

when asked what is a fair resolve? Ask it like this. 
If my child was used for sexual gratification at the hand of a grown man, while under the protection of an organization pointed at male youth, knowing his life path will be severely impacted and he may not recover mentally, what would I think is fair. Would you worry about the future of the organization? Or the future of your child? 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Life

[johnsch322]

4 hours ago, ThenNow said:

How close in time to your abuse was the record created?

Within one year.

[swilliams]

13 hours ago, Life said:

Ugh. Rather than reply to a particular post I’ll just put in on the thread. I’m an amateur at best when it comes to forums. 
 

first I’ll state again how I am much impressed with the level of maturity from the survivors responses here. Seeings how most of us are stunted in many ways and have had to fight to learn How to communicate on this topic. And survivors we are. 
 

There is no need to victim blame / shame either. We have done that to our selves for all the years that led up to this. 
 

Ohh… the things we have gone through on this road that was thrust upon us. From 15 to my early 20’s ( after the abuse and recall settled in) I was in a constant state of terror! Shame, guilt, identity confusion, as well a loss of sense of self. Did I exist, or was I a non entity? Add not being able to separate terror from natural sexual feelings. The only reason I survived is I had a human spirit that woke up and became able to keep going. But I didn’t want to. 
 

my abuses were reported. Due to the nature of this case and my own sensitivity I’ll leave it at that. 
 

ive been fighting this for a long long time. I do not want other kids to suffer at any end of this. I want this problem solved!!!! 
 

when asked what is a fair resolve? Ask it like this. 
If my child was used for sexual gratification at the hand of a grown man, while under the protection of an organization pointed at male youth, knowing his life path will be severely impacted and he may not recover mentally, what would I think is fair. Would you worry about the future of the organization? Or the future of your child? 

As a parent, I’d want the abuser to suffer in ways more creative than any I could even come up with. I’m not sure that would be of any help to a child. Or a grown man who was abused as a child. It appears there’s not much that does help - no undoing what was done. 

And yes, I’d want the organization that allowed it to pay.   Still, I want to see scouting continue because I see my older son, who had some pretty major issues with anxiety, self-doubt, and suicidal thoughts as a 10-11 year old, and who has a very mild learning disability, become stronger and more confident through the opportunities he has gotten from scouting.  (He actually corrected his swim coach the other day. A major achievement for him to speak up for himself.)

There has been a lot of discussion about what can be given up and still have a functioning program. Camping, and the learning and leadership that goes along with it, has been the largest part of my son’s progress. Maybe everything should be given, as it’s not like camping doesn’t exist outside of a scout reservation. My own bigger worry would be that without an actual organization it all falls apart. Maybe something else eventually takes its place, but most people I know can barely organize a dinner with friends twice a year, let alone structure something meaningful for a large group of kids without the support being part of an organization brings. 

I’m not sure, after being part of this thread and having all of you willing to share your thoughts and stories, that the trade off of helping some boys is worth risking the abuse of another.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I’m just a mom who wants what’s best for her own child, and is having a hard time reconciling. I’m getting there, though. 

One thing that has occurred to me, as I’ve questioned why I’m okay with having my sons in scouts (and daughter in Venturing), is that I’ve continually camped with both the troop and crew  and am personally involved - as a crew advisor and a troop committee member and registered adult. My husband is an ASM now as well. 

I’d say make all the parents be more involved, but who am I kidding. I can’t even get enough people to sign up for once-a-season shift in the snack shack and end up making my kids help me run it. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by swilliams

[ThenNow]

2 hours ago, swilliams said:

As a parent, I’d want the abuser to suffer in ways more creative than any I could even come up with. I’m not sure that would be of any help to a child. Or a grown man who was abused as a child. It appears there’s not much that does help - no undoing what was done. 

Thank you very much for your even-handed and heartfelt post. For me, and many of us I think, the question of “What if it was your child?” seems too often deflected and not answered honestly. It may appear (or feel) like we are asking it as a weapon of debate, not a deep and sincere entreaty to another human being. Personally, I think yours is the answer most people would have to give. I’m not advocating or condoning violence or any such, I just mean if you don’t have a visceral, protective reaction when confronted with the prospect of the sexual abuse victim being your child or a child you know, something seems amiss. Or, you’re refusing to look at it so you can fire back the next missive. 

As to the sense that “there’s not much that does help - no undoing what was done,” that’s true in part and less so as to the other. We can all agree about the undoing. What’s done is done, as to our historic BSA child sexual abuse. As I say, the abuse is the abuse is the abuse. It happened. It was bad. For many brutal. For nearly all of us, life changing to one degree or another. “Help” is very relative, of course, so it’s terribly hard to accurately define. I will give some examples of things that, for me, have qualified as “helping.” Then, I’ll recap what I said before about a good result, which would “help.”

1. Acknowledgment. I see you. I believe you. You are not alone. You are not forgotten. You are not crazy. You are not worthless. You have a future. You are a man. You did not invite this. You are not defective, even though you have been broken.

2. Listening. As you’ve seen/read, this forum has been helpful for some/many of us. It has been critical to my sanity since I first posted in December of last year. I’m grateful to have been welcomed, even in the midst of occasional canon fire. Sometimes, we just need to express the turmoil and be allowed to do so. It’s one of the most difficult things to do, especially when we are attacked for expressing it strongly. We’re doing our best, which may not seem like enough or an adequate excuse for heightened emotions. When others fail to consider what we’re going through and don’t understand we’re not just lurking around on an online forum looking to pick a fight, it is doubly difficult. When strongly challenged, especially as to our veracity or motive, we either attack back, flee or go numb. 

3. Support. One of the ways people support me is by simply asking, “Is there anything I can do for you today?” Sometimes, they get frustrated when I say “not that I can think of,” possibly surmising I’m trying to be a martyr, carrying the burden alone. When, in fact, I often just can’t think of anything. It’s the ASK and the obvious willingness to DO something that is important. This is why when some of you ask me/us what are obviously compassionate questions about what can be done (for us and in the future of Scouting) it means so much. When I/we sense the sincerity and concern, followed by active (virtual) listening and reflective responses, it’s powerful.

4. Don’t Solve for X. We can’t be “fixed” or solved, as to what happened to us. Fix the BSA. Please don’t come with your tool kit and try to look under the hood of victims and do your magic to make things run smoothly. Men, in particular, can be prone to over-simplify, race to a diagnosis and set off banging on things to make them work. This is way too complex. As I’ve said before, if you want to really understand, you’ll need to study the subject matter. You can read, The Body Keeps the Score and Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, to understand a bit about impacts. I can suggest others, as well. I could go on, but I’ll leave it there and other guys can add.

I did this in a previous post about a “good outcome” and may forget a couple point, but what would help at this stage, relative to the BSA drawing us out and into this would include:

1) YPT improvements (with all the elements I, MYCVAStory and others have noted); 

2) Full disclosure and accountability;

3) AG investigations;

4) As much money as we can get; and

5) An actual apology, not just “We are so saddened...that some were abused while a part of Scouting.” I tried to teach our kids, if you know you did something wrong, you don’t just throw out an obligatory, “Sorry” and think it’s over. Being sorry is about sorrow for what you said or did or didn’t do. That’s the root of the word. What I requested they do is say, “I’m sorry I ______. Would you please forgive me?” In my experience, adults have a very hard time doing that. Men are particularly challenged. I tried to let my kids hear me ask for forgiveness whenever it was appropriate. I tried to tell them I’m proud of them as often as possible. Still do. It’s something most of us as adults don’t hear. I make it a point to tell those around me on a regular basis. It’s interesting to see the look on a 50 year old man’s face when I tell him, “I’m proud of you for making that difficult decision.” Interestingly, I can see my little men in his eyes when it slides down into his heart. 

Honestly, I don’t think BSA has expressed sorrow. I think we are their embarrassing and vexing albatross. They are certainly not proud of us. Imagine being the poster boys for bringing down the Boy Scouts. I’ll stop there.

2 hours ago, swilliams said:

And yes, I’d want the organization that allowed it to pay.   Still, I want to see scouting continue because I see my older son, who had some pretty major issues with anxiety, self-doubt, and suicidal thoughts as a 10-11 year old, and who has a very mild learning disability, become stronger and more confident through the opportunities he has gotten from scouting.  (He actually corrected his swim coach the other day. A major achievement for him to speak up for himself.)

Yeah. This is my internal dilemma, as well. I gained much, lost more.

2 hours ago, swilliams said:

There has been a lot of discussion about what can be given up and still have a functioning program. Camping, and the learning and leadership that goes along with it, has been the largest part of my son’s progress. Maybe everything should be given, as it’s not like camping doesn’t exist outside of a scout reservation. My own bigger worry would be that without an actual organization it all falls apart.

Camping, and all that goes into it, definitely produced the core benefit for me.

2 hours ago, swilliams said:

I’m not sure, after being part of this thread and having all of you willing to share your thoughts and stories, that the trade off of helping some boys is worth risking the abuse of another.  I don’t know what the right answer is.  I’m just a mom who wants what’s best for her own child, and is having a hard time reconciling. I’m getting there, though. 

Again, your candor in expressing your struggle is appreciated. 

Edited August 2, 2021 by ThenNow
SO many typpos. So little time...

[swilliams]

14 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Thank you very much for your even-handed and heartfelt post. For me, and many of us I think, the question of “What if it was your child?” seems too often deflected and not answered honestly. It may appear (or feel) like we are asking it as a weapon of debate, not a deep and sincere entreaty to another human being. Personally, I think yours is the answer most people would have to give. I’m not advocating or condoning violence or any such, I just mean if you don’t have a visceral, protective reaction when confronted with the prospect of the sexual abuse victim being your child or a child you know, something seems amiss. Or, you’re refusing to look at it so you can fire back the next missive. 

As to the sense that “there’s not much that does help - no undoing what was done,” that’s true in part and less so as to the other. We can all agree about the undoing. What’s done is done, as to our historic BSA child sexual abuse. As I say, the abuse is the abuse is the abuse. It happened. It was bad. For many brutal. For nearly all of us, life changing to one degree or another. “Help” is very relative, of course, so it’s terribly hard to accurately define. I will give some examples of things that, for me, have qualified as “helping.” Then, I’ll recap what I said before about a good result, which would “help.”

1. Acknowledgment. I see you. I believe you. You are not alone. You are not forgotten. You are not crazy. You are not worthless. You have a future. You are a man. You did not invite this. You are not defective, even though you have been broken.

2. Listening. As you’ve seen/read, this forum has been helpful for some/many of us. It has been critical to my sanity since I first posted in December of last year. I’m grateful to have been welcomed, even in the midst of occasional canon fire. Sometimes, we just need to express the turmoil and be allowed to do so. It’s one of the most difficult things to do and, as here, when we are attacked for expressing it strongly. When others fail to consider what we’re going through and understand we’re not just lurking around on an online forum looking to pick a fight, it is doubly difficult. When strongly challenged, especially as to our veracity or motive, we either attack back, flee or go numb. 

3. Support. One of the ways people support me is by simply asking, “Is there anything I can do for you today?” Sometimes, they get frustrated when I say “not that I can think of,” possibly surmising I’m trying to be a martyr, carrying the burden alone. When, in fact, I often just can’t think of anything. It’s the ASK and the obvious willingness to DO something that is important. This is why when some of you ask me/us what are obviously compassionate questions about what can be done (for us and in the future of Scouting) it means so much. When I/we sense the sincerity and concern, followed by active (virtual) listening and reflective responses, it’s powerful.

4. Don’t Solve for X. We can’t be “fixed” or solved, as to what happened to us. Fix the BSA. Please don’t come with your tool kit and try to look under the hood of victims and do your magic to make things run smoothly. Men, in particular, can be prone to over-simplify, race to a diagnosis and set off banging on things to make them work. This way too complex. As I’ve said before, if you want to really understand, you’ll need to study the subject matter. You can read, The Body Keeps the Score and Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, to understand a bit about impacts. I can suggest others, as well. I could go on, but I’ll leave it there and other guys can add.

I did this in a previous post about a “good outcome” and may forget a couple point, but what would help at this stage, relative to the BSA drawing us out and into this would include:

1) YPT improvements (with all the elements I, MYCVAStory and others have noted); 

2) Full disclosure and accountability;

3) AG investigations;

4) As much money as we can get; and

5) An actual apology, not just “We are so saddened...that some were abused while a part of Scouting.” I tried to teach our kids, if you know you did something wrong, you don’t just throw out an obligatory, “Sorry” and think it’s over. Being sorry is about sorrow for what you said or did or didn’t do. That’s the root of the word. What I requested they do is say, “I’m sorry I ______. Would you please forgive me?” In my experience, adults have a very hard time doing that. Men are particularly challenged. I tried to let my kids hear me ask for forgiveness whenever it was appropriate. I tried to tell them I’m proud of them as often as possible.

Honestly, I don’t think BSA has expressed sorrow. I think we are their embarrassing and vexing albatross. They are certainly not proud of us. Imagine being the poster boys for bringing down the Boy Scouts. I’ll stop there.

Yeah. This is my internal dilemma, as well. I gained much, lost more.

Camping, and all that goes into it, definitely produced the core benefit for me.

Again, you’re candor in expressing your struggle is appreciated. 

Thanks for your response - particularly point #4.  There’s a lot to learn from listening (or reading, in this case).  

I see where many of us likely have the wrong idea of helping and ‘fixing’.

[Life]

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Thank you very much for your even-handed and heartfelt post. For me, and many of us I think, the question of “What if it was your child?” seems too often deflected and not answered honestly. It may appear (or feel) like we are asking it as a weapon of debate, not a deep and sincere entreaty to another human being. Personally, I think yours is the answer most people would have to give. I’m not advocating or condoning violence or any such, I just mean if you don’t have a visceral, protective reaction when confronted with the prospect of the sexual abuse victim being your child or a child you know, something seems amiss. Or, you’re refusing to look at it so you can fire back the next missive. 

As to the sense that “there’s not much that does help - no undoing what was done,” that’s true in part and less so as to the other. We can all agree about the undoing. What’s done is done, as to our historic BSA child sexual abuse. As I say, the abuse is the abuse is the abuse. It happened. It was bad. For many brutal. For nearly all of us, life changing to one degree or another. “Help” is very relative, of course, so it’s terribly hard to accurately define. I will give some examples of things that, for me, have qualified as “helping.” Then, I’ll recap what I said before about a good result, which would “help.”

1. Acknowledgment. I see you. I believe you. You are not alone. You are not forgotten. You are not crazy. You are not worthless. You have a future. You are a man. You did not invite this. You are not defective, even though you have been broken.

2. Listening. As you’ve seen/read, this forum has been helpful for some/many of us. It has been critical to my sanity since I first posted in December of last year. I’m grateful to have been welcomed, even in the midst of occasional canon fire. Sometimes, we just need to express the turmoil and be allowed to do so. It’s one of the most difficult things to do, especially when we are attacked for expressing it strongly. We’re doing our best, which may not seem like enough or an adequate excuse for heightened emotions. When others fail to consider what we’re going through and don’t understand we’re not just lurking around on an online forum looking to pick a fight, it is doubly difficult. When strongly challenged, especially as to our veracity or motive, we either attack back, flee or go numb. 

3. Support. One of the ways people support me is by simply asking, “Is there anything I can do for you today?” Sometimes, they get frustrated when I say “not that I can think of,” possibly surmising I’m trying to be a martyr, carrying the burden alone. When, in fact, I often just can’t think of anything. It’s the ASK and the obvious willingness to DO something that is important. This is why when some of you ask me/us what are obviously compassionate questions about what can be done (for us and in the future of Scouting) it means so much. When I/we sense the sincerity and concern, followed by active (virtual) listening and reflective responses, it’s powerful.

4. Don’t Solve for X. We can’t be “fixed” or solved, as to what happened to us. Fix the BSA. Please don’t come with your tool kit and try to look under the hood of victims and do your magic to make things run smoothly. Men, in particular, can be prone to over-simplify, race to a diagnosis and set off banging on things to make them work. This is way too complex. As I’ve said before, if you want to really understand, you’ll need to study the subject matter. You can read, The Body Keeps the Score and Complex PTSD: From Surviving to Thriving, to understand a bit about impacts. I can suggest others, as well. I could go on, but I’ll leave it there and other guys can add.

I did this in a previous post about a “good outcome” and may forget a couple point, but what would help at this stage, relative to the BSA drawing us out and into this would include:

1) YPT improvements (with all the elements I, MYCVAStory and others have noted); 

2) Full disclosure and accountability;

3) AG investigations;

4) As much money as we can get; and

5) An actual apology, not just “We are so saddened...that some were abused while a part of Scouting.” I tried to teach our kids, if you know you did something wrong, you don’t just throw out an obligatory, “Sorry” and think it’s over. Being sorry is about sorrow for what you said or did or didn’t do. That’s the root of the word. What I requested they do is say, “I’m sorry I ______. Would you please forgive me?” In my experience, adults have a very hard time doing that. Men are particularly challenged. I tried to let my kids hear me ask for forgiveness whenever it was appropriate. I tried to tell them I’m proud of them as often as possible. Still do. It’s something most of us as adults don’t hear. I make it a point to tell those around me on a regular basis. It’s interesting to see the look on a 50 year old man’s face when I tell him, “I’m proud of you for making that difficult decision.” Interestingly, I can see my little men in his eyes when it slides down into his heart. 

Honestly, I don’t think BSA has expressed sorrow. I think we are their embarrassing and vexing albatross. They are certainly not proud of us. Imagine being the poster boys for bringing down the Boy Scouts. I’ll stop there.

Yeah. This is my internal dilemma, as well. I gained much, lost more.

Camping, and all that goes into it, definitely produced the core benefit for me.

Again, your candor in expressing your struggle is appreciated. 

“The body keeps the score” is amazing. 
I also recommend 

“waking the tiger” David Levine. 
 

“emotional intelligence “ also has some great insights. 
 

 

[CynicalScouter]

Bringing this back to the bankruptcy for a second:

The Unsecured Creditors Committee for the Archdiocese of Guam's bankruptcy filed its objection to the BSA disclosure statement. In it, they ask that the court at least reach some of the aspects of confirmability now rather than wait for a vote of victims to approve/reject only to at confirmation veto the whole thing.

Quote

14. Evaluating confirmability at the disclosure statement stage avoids “engaging in a wasteful and fruitless exercise of sending the disclosure statement to creditors and soliciting votes on the plan when the plan is unconfirmable on its face. Such an exercise in futility only serves to further delay a debtor’s attempts to reorganize.”

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/bd4e3bde-0056-4944-a1b0-031ea56d53c7_5842.pdf

Edited August 2, 2021 by CynicalScouter