Chapter 11 Announced - Part 4 Revised Plan

[ThenNow]

55 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

In this case it appears the system worked the way it should have.  Something happened, and as soon as discovered was reported, resulting in an arrest.

There are, as is obvious, two systems. Right? One before and one after. I would argue, there must be three. The YPT part, the criminal investigation and the BSA investigation and reporting part. In this abuse context, #2 seems to have been engaged. We don’t know if it can be said to have “worked” until further down the road. 

In addition to the failure of #1, I’m keen to learn what happens with #3 Or not. How deeply into the backstory of the “means and opportunity” of this abuse will the examination delve, not just by law enforcement? What of all the ancillary human factors that made it possible? Did he know there would be sexual activities, apparently including CSA, going on where he set up his camera? Pretty coincidental. Were there others who were secondarily or primarily involved in means, opportunity and/or perpetration? Did they collaborate? Were kids encouraged or dared to have sex in there? It definitely happens. If so, who said what to whom? If this was a known spot, was it historic? Single incident? This sort of secret knowledge can be passed down from year to year. It’s not uncommon. Having ALL of this information is what can save children this horror going forward. Not, “Whew! We caught him. Thank God that’s over.”

Edited July 29, 2021 by ThenNow

[yknot]

28 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

There are, as is obvious, two systems. Right? One before and one after. I would argue, there must be three. The YPT part, the criminal investigation and the BSA investigation and reporting part. In this abuse context, #2 seems to have been engaged. We don’t know if it can be said to have “worked” until further down the road. 

In addition to the failure of #1, I’m keen to learn what happens with #3 Or not. How deeply into the backstory of the “means and opportunity” of this abuse will the examination delve, not just by law enforcement? What of all the ancillary human factors that made it possible? Did he know there would be sexual activities, apparently including CSA, going on where he set up his camera? Pretty coincidental. Were there others who were secondarily or primarily involved in means, opportunity and/or perpetration? Did they collaborate? Were kids encouraged or dared to have sex in there? It definitely happens. If so, who said what to whom? If this was a known spot, was it historic? Single incident? This sort of secret knowledge can be passed down from year to year. It’s not uncommon. Having ALL of this information is what can save children this horror going forward. Not, “Whew! We caught him. Thank God that’s over.”

That is exactly the kind of approach that is needed. I don't see where the system worked here other than at the most minimal level. 

[RobertCalifornia]

There seem to be a lot of rabbit holes in this topic. 

As I understand now, RSA 1.0 is gone. There is a RSA 2.0 working wirh the CO’s included that can be killed if nobody’s happy.

Are the grey shade state tiers still in play? Or, the sol’s are back to 1% equity?

The “how much and when” part is where I want to arrive! 

[Life]

It’s interesting to read all this. I can sense the court process is causing ‘feelings’ nothing more than feelings. (You know the words). It should. For many of us (me) this all brings up the unseen effects of the molest. The years of psychic pain, confusion, loss of self. Actually, the complete loss of self. I likened to being a cute little wind up toy Wound up at birth and sent on its path. In perfect direction on course to a chance at all that is so easily received in life by many. Then some bully comes along and kicks it, HARD, sending the toy hurling through the air, then crash right into a wall! Now laying on its side, dented, scratched, and broken. The toy is set back on its feet. Still walking but now in circles, now it makes funny noises. Now it seems defective and used inappropriately. Now sent off its original trajectory. Never to be the same again. Repairs are made, but it will always function differently then had it never been kicked. We scolded the bully and at least the other toys are fine. 
 

the ramifications of children’s sexual abuse (acronyms can be disarming) run deep and wide, beyond human conception unless you are the human.  Many studies come close to describing the trauma but none actually do. 
 

there is the perception of ‘well, at least only a few kids were molested, raped, manipulated and ruined. Thank goodness we stopped this one. For now. 
 

then there is the perception that kids got molested, raped, manipulated and ruined. lives are destroyed and misaligned. 
 

I don’t think we can rest thinking we can minimize the damage. We have to eliminate the risk, period. These kids have to grow up. Some will become addicts and live in those frames. Recovery is tough when it’s trauma related. 
 

my point is to look at each victim. Not the kids that were un harmed. 
 

this bankruptcy has nothing to do with us. It never really did. But now it’s a joke. And we are here, some for resolve and some to minimize the damage. 
 

what about justice? Healing? And why this is not at the forefront of the proceedings is mind numbing. 
 

there is always away to solve a problem. But we have to look at the problem and this one is uncomfortable to look at. For all of society. 
 

 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Life

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

the BSA investigation and reporting part. 

I’m quoting myself to further enhance my importance. As an NA old timer likes to say, “Yeah. I’m still a legend in my own mind and I’m still leading man in my favorite action movies. I just don’t believe my commercials no more.”

I would so love to be able to do this on my abuser. How did he get to our Troop in the first place? He lived all the way across town, was newly married and fresh out of the army. Why our Troop? He was completely unknown. Didn’t belong to our Parish. Grew up and went to the Catholic school and church across town. Did someone know him? From where? Was he introduced to the parents? The old SM? The CO? Was he a Scout as a boy? Beats me. I don’t recall him ever mentioning it. How did he buy beer and porn for kids for years and no one though anything of it. The drinking was no great secret. It baffles me and that doesn’t even get into the physical perpetration that stretched at least a decade. Hm...

Edited July 29, 2021 by ThenNow

[Sentinel947]

2 hours ago, yknot said:

How is this remotely relevant to scouting? We're talking about kids who are supposed to be in a protected, supervised scout camp operating under the gold standard of youth protection in 2021. 

The more interesting question to me is how did this person manage to set up the camera. Didn't anyone notice there was an adult hanging out in the kids bathroom or during kids hours? And the really dismaying part, according to other accounts I have read, is that he recorded scouts engaging in sexual activity in the bathroom. What parent will want to send their kid to that kind of camp?

 

The accused could have set the cameras up during a mealtime when everybody was in their campsites or at the dining hall, or in the middle of the night, where the chances for detection would be low. 

The article seems to have moved here, and I'm not sure I'm finding the exact version online. There were details about them finding sexual pornography, including involving the perpetrator, but those details aren't showing on the articles I'm finding now. What the earlier articles didn't make clear was whether the sexual activity was recorded at the camp, or whether it was found on the device. Harder to say now, since I can't find that language on the articles now. Either way, it's bad. 
I hope the youth weren't engaging in sexual activities at camp. Even more so I hope the accused wasn't sexually assaulting youth at camp. 

[ThenNow]

32 minutes ago, Life said:

For many of us (me) this all brings up the unseen effects of the molest. The years of psychic pain, confusion, loss of self. Actually, the complete loss of self. I likened to being a cute little wind up toy Wound up at birth and sent on its path. In perfect direction on course to a chance at all that is so easily received in life by many. Then some bully comes along and kicks it, HARD, sending the toy hurling through the air, then crash right into a wall! Now laying on its side, dented, scratched, and broken. The toy is set back on its feet. Still walking but now in circles, now it makes funny noises. Now it seems defective and used inappropriately. Now sent off its original trajectory. Never to be the same again. Repairs are made, but it will always function differently then had it never been kicked. We scolded the bully and at least the other toys are fine. 

Sir, this is extremely well said. Poetic even, in a very painful “hits the broken thumb squarely” once again kind of way. I am 100% convinced this is the untold story that seldom enters the discussion, here or elsewhere, mainly because it is gruesome and uncomfortable. As I have said, the abuse is the abuse is the abuse. It’s the aftermath. 

I don’t know how far back you read but we had a nice jousting session after I brought up the term “soul murder” as coined by Leonard Shengold in his heralded book, Soul Murder: The Effects of Childhood Abuse and Neglect (2017). It was curious when I likened child sexual abuse to the murder of a soul. Ironically, I was almost virtually assisinated for making such a claim. “Where’s the body, if there was a murder?” I launched into “I’ll show you the body!! How much time do you have?” People don’t get this. I told a therapist years ago that child sexual abuse is the original identity thief.

You said it so well, brother. So very, very well. I hate that you know this reality so deeply that you could paint such a picture, but hopefully it helps drive home this critical point.

Edited July 30, 2021 by ThenNow

[Eagle94-A1]

My point is that no one is safe anywhere. Perps will do everythinf in there power to get what they want. I mentioned specific locations that were deemed safe, where activity has occured. 

As for the camera guy, he was setting the cameras up in the bathroom at his house, other peoples home bathrooms and even in one person's bedroom. From what i have read and heard, it does not take much time to set one up, and they are extremely difficult to find.

[yknot]

4 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

The accused could have set the cameras up during a mealtime when everybody was in their campsites or at the dining hall, or in the middle of the night, where the chances for detection would be low. 

The article seems to have moved here, and I'm not sure I'm finding the exact version online. There were details about them finding sexual pornography, including involving the perpetrator, but those details aren't showing on the articles I'm finding now. What the earlier articles didn't make clear was whether the sexual activity was recorded at the camp, or whether it was found on the device. Harder to say now, since I can't find that language on the articles now. Either way, it's bad. 
I hope the youth weren't engaging in sexual activities at camp. Even more so I hope the accused wasn't sexually assaulting youth at camp. 

Here's the version I found. Pretty horrific. 

https://dailyjournalonline.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/scout-chaperone-charged-after-cameras-found-in-s-bar-f-scout-ranch-shower-rooms/article_6574f813-b7fe-5790-9b74-7be6ff182fe2.html

 

[CynicalScouter]

33 minutes ago, RobertCalifornia said:

As I understand now, RSA 1.0 is gone. There is a RSA 2.0 working wirh the CO’s included that can be killed if nobody’s happy.

Are the grey shade state tiers still in play? Or, the sol’s are back to 1% equity?

The “how much and when” part is where I want to arrive! 

1) Yes RSA 1.0 is gone. RSA 2.0 is back and identical to 1.0 except the only major difference is that if either side dislikes whatever is brought forth as part of the plan to include COs either side can walk away. Oh and the deadline for the judge to agree is late August AND they got more lawfirms to agree, bringing the total number of claims represented by attorneys to over 70,000.

2) The grey tiers in RSA 1.0 are in RSA 2.0. Again 1.0 = 2.0 plus a few amendments.

3) How much and when is still TBD. Remember: the RSA is simply "This is what BSA, the LCs, the FCR, the TCC, and the Coalition lawyers have agreed to."

We are still a long, long journey to anything approximating a conclusion.

A) The RSA is a plan for a plan. It can still fall apart for 11 different reasons specified in the RSA itself including, and most especially, if the judge decides to enforce the Hartford agreement BSA previously agreed to.

B) The insurance companies, the US Trustee, and a host of others including some victims lawyers are objecting to this whole thing for a litany of reasons. All it takes is the judge agreeing to 1 reason, and the RSA and/or the plan is scrapped.

C) Even if we get a plan, 2/3rds of voting victims may not accept it.

D) Even if we get a plan, the insurance companies can and will drag/stall for as long as they can.

Etc.

 

[swilliams]

On 7/28/2021 at 5:31 PM, ThenNow said:

I don't recall getting anything at my Court of Honor save for a cake, which my dad made. Oh. I did get some cash from relatives and a twelve pack of Old Style from my fellows. All seriousness aside, I mean messa got nada from the esteemed Troop. (Btw, I don't like the term Unit. Just putting that out there.)

 At our last Eagle COH I gave the four scouts we were honoring a picture frame with the photo mat showing images of the merit badges they had earned, and with their name and date they made Eagle at the top. It was intended to be a personal gift from me, but our Scoutmaster somehow convinced me to present them as being from the Troop.   I guess that’s what we do now. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by swilliams

[ThenNow]

34 minutes ago, yknot said:

Pretty horrific. 

Yes and I mean that. Now choose one boy whose abuse checks all or most of the boxes for aggravating factors/multipliers. Lay out his story. Take mine, if you’d like. Nearly 7 years’ worth. Again, I agree with the use of the word, but how do we describe my abuse? Robert’s, Life’s, John’s, Eagle1970’s, Bronco’s, AnonEagle’s, 100th Eagle’s, RandomScouter’s...and the other guys speaking up here, those who are listening and all the others of us. What word or words do we use. My point is, there are none. When we find one or a couple, let’s try to do the same for the aftermath. Words fail.

Edited July 30, 2021 by ThenNow

[Life]

42 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Sir, this is extremely well said. Poetic even, in a very painful “hits the broken thumb squarely” once again kind of way. I am 100% convinced this is the untold story that seldom enters the discussion, here or elsewhere, mainly because it is gruesome and uncomfortable. As I have said, the abuse is the abuse is the abuse. It’s the aftermath. 

I don’t know how far back you read but we had a nice jousting session after I brought up the term “soul murder” as coined by Leonard Shengold in his heralded book, Soul Murder: The Effects of Childhood Abuse and Neglect (2017). It was curious when I likened child sexual abuse to the murder of a soul. Ironically, I was almost virtually assisinated for making such a claim. “Where’s the body, if there was a murder?” I launched into “I’ll show you the body!! How much time do you have?” People don’t get this. I told a therapist years ago that child sexual abuse is the original identity thief.

You said it so well, brother. So very, very well. I hate that you know this reality so deeply that you could paint such a picture, but hopefully it helps drive home this critical point.

Thank you. It’s easy to see who relates and doesn’t by the words they write. I can tell that you do and I wish you didn’t. I wish we didn’t understand. 
 

an old therapist (a long time ago, and to be fair, old) of mine told me the child sexual abuse is the worse crime that can be committed against a child. That murder would be mercy in comparison. Worse is to have your soul snatched away and replaced with nothing. I use harsh words because people don’t want to hear the reality of it. 
 

I hear you and the others brother. I find solace in the stories I read from us. 

would you believe I’m actually funny? No really, I am, hilarious. 

 

[Sentinel947]

7 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Yes and I mean that. Now choose one boy whose abuse checks all or most of the boxes for aggravating factors/multipliers. Lay out his story. Take mine, if you’d like. Nearly 7 years’ worth. Again, I agree with the use of the word, but how do we describe my abuse? Robert’s, Life’s, John’s, Eagle1970’s, Bronco’s, AnonEagle’s, 100th Eagle’s, RandomScouter’s...and the other guys speaking up here, those who are listening and all the others of us. What word or words do we use. My point is, there are none. When we find one or a couple, let’s try to do the same for the aftermath. Words fail.

There are no words that can adequately capture the sexual abuse of children. It's an unspeakable crime, and I respect you and the other survivors who have posted here for coming here and speaking. Even over the internet, it puts real people behind the statistics. There's also nothing I can really say that will make the situation better, you're all in a waiting game, I'll just try not to be obnoxious company. 

41 minutes ago, yknot said:

Here's the version I found. Pretty horrific. 

https://dailyjournalonline.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/scout-chaperone-charged-after-cameras-found-in-s-bar-f-scout-ranch-shower-rooms/article_6574f813-b7fe-5790-9b74-7be6ff182fe2.html

 

If what's detailed is accurate, there better be a deep investigation. As @Eagle94-A1pointed out, this guy has apparently been doing this elsewhere. Who else and in what ways has he victimized others? Has he done this at other Scout camps? At Church? At work? Community centers? 

It triggers a bunch of questions for the BSA. Were the restrooms single occupant, or is it a multi occupant showerhouse? Were males and females mixing? Were youth and adults mixing? Was he registered? Background checked? Had he been reported for odd behavior before?

Looks like 4 separate female youth and 1 male youth were recorded changing or showering, along with a female adult. Then the separate 3 male youth involved in some sort of sexual activity among themselves, or with the accused setting up the cameras? He was identified by the camera footage, so did he assault any of the youth involved? 

 

 

[ThenNow]

45 minutes ago, Sentinel947 said:

As @Eagle94-A1pointed out, this guy has apparently been doing this elsewhere.

I guess I missed this part. Where did my brain freeze? Better yet, run it by me again. I’ll try to keep my noggin near the Sterno in the meantime.

Edited July 30, 2021 by ThenNow