Chapter 11 Announced - Part 4 Revised Plan

[elitts]

18 hours ago, yknot said:

Yes, I'm aware of that form obviously. What I am saying it that nowhere on that form does it say your child is at risk of being sexually abused while in scouting. That's what I'm talking about. 

Where isn't a child at risk of being sexually abused?  It's an unfortunate fact of life that you risk being hurt by being alive and you risk being hurt by other people as soon as you interact with them.  The only way parents get through the job of raising their kids with their sanity intact is by convincing themselves that "it won't happen to my child"; unfortunately, sometimes they are wrong.

 

[yknot]

3 minutes ago, elitts said:

Where isn't a child at risk of being sexually abused?  It's an unfortunate fact of life that you risk being hurt by being alive and you risk being hurt by other people as soon as you interact with them.  The only way parents get through the job of raising their kids with their sanity intact is by convincing themselves that "it won't happen to my child"; unfortunately, sometimes they are wrong.

 

Well, they are not at risk for that on the climbing wall. Not in the canoe. Not on the shooting range,  etc., etc. But back at camp they are. Scouting is presented as a physical and adventure activity by BSA. Parents are thinking of broken bones and cracked heads, not rape and molestation, but that's a risk you say they should accept.  If so, BSA should spell that out on the waivers. 

[ThenNow]

5 minutes ago, elitts said:

Where isn't a child at risk of being sexually abused?

You have made the point beautifully. Let’s find out. Where are the highest risks and where less so? What situations are the most dangerous and put kids at the most risk? Why not choose a scenario that is ripe and ready? Start with a thorough examination of BSA. See who, what, where, when, why and how in the world all of this happened. Based on what we learn, we’ll know more about what to do and what not to do. Then, we do it again with another context and play it forward...

[elitts]

17 hours ago, SiouxRanger said:

For some strange reason, the BSA continues to enjoy a high level of deference.  (Maybe it will all work out OK.)  My best guess.

(OK in the sense of "good news to report" as measured by the media.  I doubt that any resolution will be seen as good news by the survivors.)

However, on that note, would any survivor care to express their hopes for this procedure?

I suspect part of the reason Scouts isn't being condemned from the rooftops is because for almost everyone in the country "The BSA" is their friends and neighbors in the troop/pack down the road, NOT the folks over in Irving, TX.  It's harder to vilify an organization when it's made up of people you know.

2 hours ago, yknot said:

It is a societal problem. Trying to deflect and exonerate yourself by pointing that out, however, isn't at all useful. BSA is the organization that has been identified in lawsuits as having a significant issue. BSA has to do and be better. Simply doing a better job of living up to its own advertised and aggressively promoted oaths and laws would be a start. BSA has access to decades of its own internal data that it could be using to produce incident reports that could inform leaders when, why, where, and how incidents of CSA are occurring. There is no transparency however. And regardless of what you want to argue about where else CSA occurs, the reality is that it is BSA that has the public perception problem. As long as egregious cases like the one this month in Missouri keep occuring, BSA is going to have an issue. Being angry that others are "getting away with it" because they are not BSA doesn't serve any purpose.  

I suspect your notion that the BSA is sitting on mountains of "data" is incorrect.  They may well have decades of "information", but the amount of money and time it takes to digitize historical paper records into usable "data" is frequently mindboggling.  For a comparison, I work in the field of property tax.  Most County Registers in Michigan have been digitizing documents (as opposed to microfiche) for about 15-20 years.  And yet most counties have still only managed to digitize historical data back to about the 80s in the 20 years since that became an option.

However, the BSA's information could certainly be turned over to a national organization for data conversion and research.

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

All I am asking is that they go beyond the witch hunt with BSA and take other bites of the elephant.  Expand the focus to include other agencies and publicly drag them into view.  I realize this discussion is on the BSA, but the point is that it should not simply be on BSA, but should be clearly reaching far beyond them, as it is not JUST a BSA issue, but a real societal issue that dwarfs the localized drama.  And, with that, I bow out again, for a bit, at least.

 

See below

1 minute ago, ThenNow said:

You have made the point beautifully. Let’s find out. Where are the highest risks and where less so? What situations are the most dangerous and put kids at the most risk? Why not choose a scenario that is ripe and ready? Start with a thorough examination of BSA. See who, what, where, when, why and how in the world all of this happened. Based on what we learn, we’ll know more about what to do and what not to do. Then, we do it again with another context and play it forward...

If that could be handled in an impartial way and with an eye towards making productive changes, I wouldn't have any problem with it.  However, my experience with US society tells me that we probably won't be capable of examining one organization "first" without the public assumption being that the problems only exist there simply because other organizations haven't been studied yet.  Instead what often seems to happen is that whenever some new problem gets studied, the first few organizations to be examined get totally demonized as "the sole blemish staining our society" in public opinion as and only years down the road when we've finally discovered "holy crap, I guess this really DOES happen everywhere" do we get around to figuring out what kinds of societal changes need to be made to help fix a problem. 

[elitts]

18 minutes ago, yknot said:

Well, they are not at risk for that on the climbing wall. Not in the canoe. Not on the shooting range,  etc., etc. But back at camp they are. Scouting is presented as a physical and adventure activity by BSA. Parents are thinking of broken bones and cracked heads, not rape and molestation, but that's a risk you say they should accept.  If so, BSA should spell that out on the waivers. 

Maybe not ON the climbing wall, what about pulled off around behind it?  Or stopped for a break on a canoe trip when the other boats float up ahead for a few minutes or in the ammo room of the shooting range?

The only way I can think of the actually make sure every child is safe from sexual abuse would be to make virtually certain that every child is being continuously monitored by at least two different people who don't know each other.

[ThenNow]

2 minutes ago, elitts said:

my experience with US society tells me that we probably won't be capable of examining one organization "first" without the public assumption being that the problems only exist there simply because other organizations haven't been studied yet.  Instead what often seems to happen is that whenever some new problem gets studied, the first few organizations to be examined get totally demonized as "the sole blemish staining our society" in public opinion as and only years down the road when we've finally discovered "holy crap, I guess this really DOES happen everywhere" do we get around to figuring out what kinds of societal changes need to be made to help fix a problem. 

I agree with you here, for sure. We have a horribly short attention span and equally poor memory. I think that’s why a movement is needed to make this happen. I think that was MYCVASTORY’s point about the equivalent of a Funny Pink Hat Brigade and mine about getting it down to state and precinct rep level. We often think once we kill the Zombie in front of us, that’s game, set and match. Hello? There are ten more coming around that wrecked bus up yonder. Sorry. I can’t stop with the Zombies. They are just so universally applicable. 

[yknot]

2 minutes ago, elitts said:

Maybe not ON the climbing wall, what about pulled off around behind it?  Or stopped for a break on a canoe trip when the other boats float up ahead for a few minutes or in the ammo room of the shooting range?

The only way I can think of the actually make sure every child is safe from sexual abuse would be to make virtually certain that every child is being continuously monitored by at least two different people who don't know each other.

Anything can happen anywhere but I haven't noticed climbing wall gyms being sued en masse for rampant cases of child sexual abuse.  Or canoe outfitters. Or shooting ranges. The waivers for those activities generally match the expected risks. 

[Eagle94-A1]

27 minutes ago, yknot said:

Well, they are not at risk for that on the climbing wall. 

Don't be too sure of that. Climbing harnesses and Swiss seats can be tricky put on. I know I was extremely careful putting those on females back in the day. Also knew one couple, both climbers, who swore they did some nighttime activities on a tower.

 

30 minutes ago, yknot said:

Not in the canoe. 

Two consenting adults staff members were sent home for fooling around in a canoe at one camp I worked at.

[Eagle94-A1]

Regarding the videotaping at a camp shower, if I can find the link, I will post. Read an article where one college guy recorded over 18 ladies in bathrooms and showers. He  would go in the bathroom before them, set up the cameras, and record. He did this at his and other folks homes. The cameras are extremely difficult to spot.

[ThenNow]

10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Don't be too sure of that. Climbing harnesses and Swiss seats can be tricky put on. I know I was extremely careful putting those on females back in the day. Also knew one couple, both climbers, who swore they did some nighttime activities on a tower.

 

10 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Two consenting adults staff members were sent home for fooling around in a canoe at one camp I worked at.

And, I once threw a TicTac into the air and it came down and landed in my buddy’s ear and he had to have emergency surgery because it punctured his eardrum and somehow migrated to his Palatine tonsil before it slid down and blocked his esophagus, having turned sideways. TicTacs are now banned at that camp. Come on. You know what we’re talking about...

Edited July 29, 2021 by ThenNow

[fred8033]

53 minutes ago, Eagle1970 said:

But if children cannot be protected, and they clearly cannot, then there is no place for them to attend events such as camp.  There will always be an abuser and always be a hidden spot for them to prey on the kids.  Clearly, this camp still does not provide adequate protection for the attendees.  

Regardless of my personal feelings regarding the future of scouting, just how in the hell can the scouts ever continue with these events occurring. 

Are they safer without camp?  After-the-fact individual case-by-case basis, yes.  If you know in advance that a specific person will be abused, they are better off at home and not at camp. 

If you look at total numbers?  Would the total number be less?  I'm not sure.  Most common abuser is a direct relative.  After that, the abuser usually knows the victim in some context (neighbor, co-worker, coach, teacher, etc).  In addition, other dangers exist as youth look for ways to spend their time.  I'm aware of too many youth our city has buried because they made fatal mistakes in their spare time.  Related, camp teaches youth about their own mortality.  Survive a big thunderstorm.  Bang your head on a tree.  etc, etc.   It seems experienced scouts, tend to push the limits less.  (but that could be my biased view)

I just don't accept the argument that youth would be safer without camp.  

[yknot]

Just now, Eagle94-A1 said:

Don't be too sure of that. Climbing harnesses and Swiss seats can be tricky put on. I know I was extremely careful putting those on females back in the day. Also knew one couple, both climbers, who swore they did some nighttime activities on a tower.

 

Two consenting adults staff members were sent home for fooling around in a canoe at one camp I worked at.

No

 

16 minutes ago, elitts said:

I suspect part of the reason Scouts isn't being condemned from the rooftops is because for almost everyone in the country "The BSA" is their friends and neighbors in the troop/pack down the road, NOT the folks over in Irving, TX.  It's harder to vilify an organization when it's made up of people you know.

BSA has been coasting on that perception for decades and that's why so many COs never thought twice about signing that recharter agreement that the nice scout person brought to them once a year. The bankruptcy case, depending on what happens with the COs, really has the potential to completely change that. 

 

16 minutes ago, elitts said:

I suspect your notion that the BSA is sitting on mountains of "data" is incorrect.  They may well have decades of "information", but the amount of money and time it takes to digitize historical paper records into usable "data" is frequently mindboggling.  For a comparison, I work in the field of property tax.  Most County Registers in Michigan have been digitizing documents (as opposed to microfiche) for about 15-20 years.  And yet most counties have still only managed to digitize historical data back to about the 80s in the 20 years since that became an option.

However, the BSA's information could certainly be turned over to a national organization for data conversion and research.

 

If BSA had taken a fraction of what it spent on Summit and invested it in becoming the Mossad of Youth Protection, we likely wouldn't be here today. They had the data. They had the money. They had the opportunity and compelling need but chose to focus elsewhere. 

[ThenNow]

7 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding the videotaping at a camp shower, if I can find the link, I will post. Read an article where one college guy recorded over 18 ladies in bathrooms and showers. He  would go in the bathroom before them, set up the cameras, and record. He did this at his and other folks homes. The cameras are extremely difficult to spot.

Is that a new Scouting location? College Dorm High Adventure Base? I don’t recall a YPT or Scout Oath and Law associated with my university experience. As awful as that is, it is not what we’re talking about...

Dorm, homes, whatever.

Edited July 29, 2021 by ThenNow

[yknot]

3 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

Regarding the videotaping at a camp shower, if I can find the link, I will post. Read an article where one college guy recorded over 18 ladies in bathrooms and showers. He  would go in the bathroom before them, set up the cameras, and record. He did this at his and other folks homes. The cameras are extremely difficult to spot.

How is this remotely relevant to scouting? We're talking about kids who are supposed to be in a protected, supervised scout camp operating under the gold standard of youth protection in 2021. 

The more interesting question to me is how did this person manage to set up the camera. Didn't anyone notice there was an adult hanging out in the kids bathroom or during kids hours? And the really dismaying part, according to other accounts I have read, is that he recorded scouts engaging in sexual activity in the bathroom. What parent will want to send their kid to that kind of camp?

 

[MikeS72]

55 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

m incredibly curious how stuff like this lands on the ears, minds and heart of Scouting parents, present and near future. Is it mentioned or considered? Discussed? Or, it’s a matter of, “Wow, but NO WAY that would EVER happen at OUR camp...”?

It was briefly brought up in the Q & A at a Cub recruiting night the first year we enrolled girls in the Cub Scout program.  The most honest answer we could give was that we take the safety and well being of every Scout, male or female, very seriously.  We always do everything in our power to ensure that nothing like this will happen, but the best way for that parent to help us do that would be to register and participate along with his daughter.

As to this particular incident, I saw the news reports several days ago.  While I was disheartened to see it happened, I was pleased to see that as soon as it was discovered it was reported to authorities, and the perpetrator was arrested.  As was mentioned earlier in this thread, zero incidents is a laudable goal, but probably not realistic.  There is however, a difference between zero incidents and zero tolerance.  In this case it appears the system worked the way it should have.  Something happened, and as soon as discovered was reported, resulting in an arrest.