Chapter 11 Announced - Part 4 Revised Plan

[johnsch322]

11 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Someone among the RSA parties won’t agree to extend the expiration date, which is tomorrow. I heard no indication during the hearing as to which party or parties. If they won’t agree to extend, they don’t want to be in the deal, as cut. That’s my take. 

My money is on the TCC.

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, ThenNow said:

If indeed bankruptcy is just business, this one is a corrupt enterprise. 

Hard to comment without violating the guidance to avoid commenting on lawyers, their motivations and their ethics.  

Perhaps the best path is to fail bankruptcy.  Period.  Pay the existing personal injury awards that have been blocked by bankruptcy.  Then, partner with insurance companies in court on a case by case basis.  Each of these cases could have their day court. 

Liquidation is not an answer either.  Too many huge questions.  Are LCs legally separate?  Restricted assets?  Pensions / benefits / PBGC / etc.  I really question whether liquidation would ever result in more funds to the end victims.  I'm not even sure if it would be more or less costly to administer.

My only real desire is to see Philmont and The Summit become something like national parks preserved and dedicated for the youth of this country to challenge themselves with adventure and wilderness.  ... Imagine Yellowstone trying to host even a fraction of the 10 person crews hosted by Philmont?  Bigger events like at The Summit?  ... I'm not sure I care if it's via BSA or a special new national park category.  I just hope they get preserved for the youth to do youth oriented adventures.  Sea Base (my favorite) and Northern Tier are special, but similar adventure opportunities exist with private parties on the ocean, the golf and the BWCA.  It's just that Philmont (west) and The Summit (east) have very special roles being able to target adventure for higher numbers of youth. 

Perhaps every state should have a national park dedicated for youth to experience outdoor adventure.   

Edited July 28, 2021 by fred8033

[yknot]

24 minutes ago, SiouxRanger said:

“This business will get out of control. It will get out of control and we'll be lucky to live through it.”
FRED THOMPSON - as Admiral Painter

 

 

 "Ryan, some things in here don't react well to bullets." 

ALEC BALDWIN, as Jack Ryan, quoting SEAN CONNERY, as Capt. Ramius.

 

Things could indeed get very messy. 

 

[ThenNow]

Kosnoff Law

 

@SexAbuseAttys

I told BSA and the mediators eighteen months ago this was a bottomless pit of agony. They said I was exaggerating. Then…84k proofs of claim.

 

Say what you want, he nailed it. Ha. “Bottomless pit of agony.” Personally, I think we’re back with the Albino Nurse in the Pit of Despair sizing up our chances against “the machine.” Resistance and raging are futile. So say we all. That was a potpourri of mixed references. I’m tired. Gimme some slack.

[Life]

https://fox2now.com/news/missouri/boy-scout-chaperone-accused-of-placing-hidden-cameras-in-bathrooms-at-summer-camp/amp/

im confused and angry. Forgive me if this is not the place to post this and I will remove it. All the while squabbling in court to compensate past csa survivors while creating more victims.  The irony. 

[yknot]

3 minutes ago, Life said:

https://fox2now.com/news/missouri/boy-scout-chaperone-accused-of-placing-hidden-cameras-in-bathrooms-at-summer-camp/amp/

im confused and angry. Forgive me if this is not the place to post this and I will remove it. All the while squabbling in court to compensate past csa survivors while creating more victims.  The irony. 

Ugh. This is why Kosnoff might be right. If this kind of thing is still happening despite gold standard YP, perhaps BSA should not be trusted with children. This isn't something that kind of happened sort of tangential to scouting but right in a summer camp under the noses ofprobably dozens of other adults, If we can't keep kids safe there, where can scouting keep them safe? 

[fred8033]

3 minutes ago, yknot said:

Ugh. This is why Kosnoff might be right. If this kind of thing is still happening despite gold standard YP, perhaps BSA should not be trusted with children. This isn't something that kind of happened sort of tangential to scouting but right in a summer camp under the noses of probably dozens of other adults, If we can't keep kids safe there, where can scouting keep them safe? 

If the correct thing is to shut down, then public swimming pools and youth locker rooms are in question too.  Shopping center fitting rooms and public bathrooms should close too.  

Evil exists.  It's how we react to it that is important.  It went to police.  Charges pending.  Not hidden, etc. 

I'm just not sure creating more fear is right either.  

[yknot]

2 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

If the correct thing is to shut down, then public swimming pools and youth locker rooms are in question too.  Shopping center fitting rooms and public bathrooms should close too.  

Evil exists.  It's how we react to it that is important.  It went to police.  Charges pending.  Not hidden, etc. 

I'm just not sure creating more fear is right either.  

I hear you but we've been saying that scouting is so much better at YP than the public swimming pools. locker rooms, etc. What we need to be saying is that we can't protect your kids any better here than anywhere else. Our YP is good but your kids could still be victimized. BSA is at this moment trying to market safety which is something we can't provide. Where is the waiver, like the ones you sign at the climbing wall or the tubing outfitter or wherever, that says scouting is an inherently risky activity when it comes to youth protection and you as the parent accept those risks? 

And apart from all that, look at this report. We are in the middle of a bankruptcy because of CSA. That guy is wearing a boy scout t shirt espousing On My Honor for his perp shot. The irony cannot be lost on you. If the wrong (right?) media outlet picks up on this, it could be a meme to end all memes for scouting. If AIS has a PR arm, they will make hay with this. I think we have to hope that BSA has become so irrelevant, that most media don't even notice it and pick it up. 

[MYCVAStory]

53 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

Someone among the RSA parties won’t agree to extend the expiration date, which is tomorrow. I heard no indication during the hearing as to which party or parties. If they won’t agree to extend, they don’t want to be in the deal, as cut. That’s my take. 

My money is on the TCC.

Remember, in bankruptcy, like politics, a day is a year.  Much can and often changes quickly.  "Dead" deals are resurrected miraculously.  Also, just a reminder, the TCC will be providing its "take" on the situation in a week:

NOTICE OF VIRTUAL TOWN HALL MEETINGS HOSTED BY THE OFFICIAL COMMITTEE OF BOY SCOUT ABUSE SURVIVORS

The next TCC Town Hall will be held on Thursday, August 5, 2021, at 5pm PDT/8pm EDT. 

Zoom link: https://pszjlaw.zoom.us/j/89421964324  (no registration required)

or

Join by phone: 888-788-0099, meeting id 894 2196 4324

[fred8033]

18 minutes ago, yknot said:

I hear you but we've been saying that scouting is so much better at YP than the public swimming pools. locker rooms, etc. What we need to be saying is that we can't protect your kids any better here than anywhere else. Our YP is good but your kids could still be victimized. BSA is at this moment trying to market safety which is something we can't provide. Where is the waiver, like the ones you sign at the climbing wall or the tubing outfitter or wherever, that says scouting is an inherently risky activity when it comes to youth protection and you as the parent accept those risks? 

And apart from all that, look at this report. We are in the middle of a bankruptcy because of CSA. That guy is wearing a boy scout t shirt espousing On My Honor for his perp shot. The irony cannot be lost on you. If the wrong (right?) media outlet picks up on this, it could be a meme to end all memes for scouting. If AIS has a PR arm, they will make hay with this. I think we have to hope that BSA has become so irrelevant, that most media don't even notice it and pick it up. 

Yes.  The irony, symbolism and explicit imagery is bad.  Then again, the internet is filled with bad imagery from almost every type of profession, country, etc.  ...   The system worked.  It got reported.  The guy is in jail.  That is what was supposed to happen.  Sometimes doing right is hard when the image looks bad.  The image is bad marketing.  The actual bad is working to hide the imagery.   

Also Yes.  BSA's YP is good, but evil and crimes still happens.  It's how we discourage crimes and how handle incidents after they happen.   Background checks.  Training for awareness.  Explicit practices (no one-on-one contact, etc).  Mandatory reporting.  

 

Sadly funny story ...  When my first son was wolf, we attended a weekend cub camp.  ... Staff took cubs into the field for games.  Camp ranger gave orientation to the dads / moms.  Camp ranger joked that he'd prefer if all the dads minimize late night trips out of the camp, but if we needed to leave don't wear anything saying scouts at the near by bars / adult businesses.  ... Apparently it happened more than once and he didn't like the imagery.  
 

Edited July 28, 2021 by fred8033

[yknot]

8 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Yes.  The irony, symbolism and explicit imagery is bad.  But then again, the system worked.  It got reported.  That is what was supposed to happen.  Sometimes doing right is hard when the image looks bad.  The real bad is trying to privately correct and hiding the bad imagery.  

But then again, you pretty much can find bad imagery with almost anything associated with anyone or any category. 
 

The system didn't work if it keeps happening. Parents aren't looking at this and thinking, hey, I'm OK if my kid is within the percentage of scouters who are victimized, they are thinking Holy Cow scouting still can't get it's act together despite all that has happened. I don't want that to be my kid. There may be a statistical defense for CSA cases still occuring in scouting but it is meaningless and irrelevant in the face of the visceral emotional response.  

[fred8033]

1 minute ago, yknot said:

The system didn't work if it keeps happening. Parents aren't looking at this and thinking, hey, I'm OK if my kid is within the percentage of scouters who are victimized, they are thinking Holy Cow scouting still can't get it's act together despite all that has happened. I don't want that to be my kid. There may be a statistical defense for CSA cases still occuring in scouting but it is meaningless and irrelevant in the face of the visceral emotional response.  

System didn't work if it keeps happening?    You expect perfection in life?  No crime?  No evil?  ... The system was not about eliminating all evil / crime ever.  ... That is an impossibility that would not even be achieved by shutting down scouting as I'm not sure youth would be safer at home or safer in other activities that would fill the scouting vacuum.  ....   The YP system was to strongly discourage by making it very difficult and then to property handle when it happened while still allowing the scouting program continue.

meaningless and irrelevant in the face of the visceral emotional response.   ... You can't defend against a visceral emotional response.  You can only focus on being kind, considerate and as graceful as possible ... I remember a graduate course in handling such incidents.  A strong memory of a press conference video where a CEO was barraged for a failed oil storage tank that polluted the local water supply.  The guy stood up there and took a beating.   I remember one reporter pointing out that no one in the city could shower and wondered if the CEO was going to go home and take a shower.  The CEO's job was to stand up there and take the beating of the emotional response.  

 

[skeptic]

While surely most reading this thread would agree that any abuse is too much abuse, we still cannot completely stop it, as it is and always has been a negative side of some human personalities.  As noted above, and many times in this tragedy, perfection in defending is not possible.

Let's perhaps have some of the better stat finders do some serious comparisons to the National Child Protective Services in this regard.  Even a cursory Google search will turn up some truly scary stats.  But, because it is part of the Government, it is not held to the same rabid public shame and calls for recompense.  The reports from some of the Foster systems are horror stories.  

So, I have to ask if those reports are even remotely true, where IS that public outcry and the lawyers at the bars?  Are the failures of Child Welfare agencies less repugnant than those of youth serving agencies such as the Scouts or the Boys and Girls Clubs, or the Y and so on?

As has been repeated over and over again, the failures within the BSA are fewer by percentage than in most similar groups, and certainly far less than those within the Government agencies sworn to protect the children.  And they actually have and continue to try to put real and workable barriers in place.  But, some do not take them seriously, or simply are too "busy" or "trusting" to take notice.

So, I am curious as to what the loudest on here may have to say in this regard.  Again, no abuse is acceptable, but should not the responses be similar?  Can anyone give a rational and balanced response?

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by skeptic

[1980Scouter]

6 hours ago, Life said:

https://fox2now.com/news/missouri/boy-scout-chaperone-accused-of-placing-hidden-cameras-in-bathrooms-at-summer-camp/amp/

im confused and angry. Forgive me if this is not the place to post this and I will remove it. All the while squabbling in court to compensate past csa survivors while creating more victims.  The irony. 

And he has a Boy Scout T Shirt on in the mug shot. Good for PR. Priceless.....

[ThenNow]

2 hours ago, skeptic said:

So, I am curious as to what the loudest on here may have to say in this regard.  Again, no abuse is acceptable, but should not the responses be similar?  Can anyone give a rational and balanced response?

As I’m a titch dim, what are you looking for, specifically?