WisconsinMomma Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 4 minutes ago, Jameson76 said: I was at our council camp last week. Wandered around picking out my potential new home site. Mountain and lake view preferred. Just kidding but sad that the properties are clearly in the discussion. You know, I would not might living on a site of a camp. I would prefer to live adjacent to a working camp though. Dreams are free... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttsy Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 5 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said: An excellent question. Here's my guess. This is about to become ALL about the insurance and I wouldn't place my money on the Hartford "deal" (or better said Insult to Victims) even lasting too much longer. So, how then to get the insurance companies to settle? Well, that's where the trust comes in. There are cases that are "slam dunks." Horrible acts of abuse, States with viable SOLs, complaints about the abuser that weren't pursued, you get the idea. If the Trust allows them to go forward and the insurers start to get judgements against them they have to pay. If they pay enough then it becomes more advantageous to settle. EVERYTHING in insurance is Time Value of Money. Does this mean that every victim will be able to tell the trust "no thanks" and go pursue their own cases? No. The Trust is responsible for managing this process and against which insurers so that some will quickly realize it isn't worth it. Does it also mean that those cases that go out to apply pressure will wipe out the available insurance proceeds for everyone else? No, the Trust would more than likely negotiate terms ahead of time. Will this take time? Yep. The insurers will put up defenses and even try to settle before making a more "global" offer. At some point though the dam breaks for them and they want out. Welcome to the business of bankruptcy. It takes time. I'm sure the TCC knows that victims want to know what's coming next. Waiting to see if it announces a Town Hall meeting this week at TCCBSA.COM The trustee will have a team of insurance litigators who are the very best money can buy. These guys know coverage law down to the minute. Every appellate ruling, every significant trial court opinion in real time. I can envision strategies to put maximum pressure on the carriers but the weight of the existing claims and additional claims coming forward against CO’s should be enough. One strategy is to submit an individual policy limits demand for each claimant. If the carrier denies to timely pay that claim, the limits come off. The trustee seeks a court judgment in a “reasonableness”hearing that BSA was liable for that amount.. If the court finds it reasonable, the 500k/occurrence limits become unlimited coverage on that claim. Multiply that exercise by 84,000 claims. Then the refusal to pay also gives rise to the tort of bad faith against the carrier. Think treble damages, punitive damages. Truly astronomical numbers. Chubb has a market cap of only 75B; Hartford 25B. They are truly playing with fire now. Stupid is as stupid does. Just look at BSA. We may eventually see both Chubb and the Hartford in their own Ch 11’s. I sure hope they have adequate insurance for corporate blunders of that magnitude. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 28 minutes ago, MYCVAStory said: There are cases that are "slam dunks." Horrible acts of abuse, States with viable SOLs, complaints about the abuser that weren't pursued, you get the idea. On the more problematic and disheartening flip side, there are substantive claims destined for 3-pointers and blocked off the wrist flick. Aka, time-barred. I see the Trust valuation provisions allow the Trustee discretion to allow some such claims, regardless. Yes? I assume with a heavy discount factor. I’ve asked others this question and am still unclear. The burden of proof for claims is “by a preponderance of the evidence.” Obviously, I know what that means, but how will it apply? Since the Trustee can’t engage full blown discovery given the number and age of most claims, how does this trip out? Will abusers be dragged in to be examined? Can they be, as they should? What aspects of discovery will be used and to what degree? I guess without a direct comparison between this case and another, there is no complete answer at this point. Anyone of you folks with pelagic knowledge in this area willing to weigh in? Pretty please? Inquiring minds… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 Separate question. I’ve asked it before, but the ensuing melee on other topics swallowed it up. Will the BSA continue to reimburse for counseling? I’m thinkin a bunch of us are going to need a bunch more for a bunch of years after this wraps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qwazse Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 1 hour ago, ThenNow said: Separate question. I’ve asked it before, but the ensuing melee on other topics swallowed it up. Will the BSA continue to reimburse for counseling? I’m thinkin a bunch of us are going to need a bunch more for a bunch of years after this wraps. Would you accept zero dollar payout in lieu of reimbursement for counseling? I have no idea how that would play out. I can’t imagine it being healthy for a claimant to continue to need BSA to do anything for them. A trust would be a better way to go. There’s also the broader question … What’s best for future CSA victims? My gut says a more robust federal mental health infrastructure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 11 minutes ago, qwazse said: Would you accept zero dollar payout in lieu of reimbursement for counseling? I have no idea how that would play out. I can’t imagine it being healthy for a claimant to continue to need BSA to do anything for them. A trust would be a better way to go. There’s also the broader question … What’s best for future CSA victims? My gut says a more robust federal mental health infrastructure. No. I still would like to know more about the timing and genesis of the counseling reimbursement program. I have a contact at the BSA who works with the counseling claims. Well, contacts. One is the attorney overseeing the program. I've yet to hear back from either of them, so they may be reluctant to say and/or don't know yet. There's nothing on this table that could qualify as nourishment for the soul. Healthy ain't on the menu. What's best to be done in this context that will serve future abuse victims in Scouting? In society overall? I think the best thing that can be done is the type of criminal investigation MI has launched, provided it gets amble air time. Let's get under the surface of this thing and see what we learn. Also, if BSA can elevate is YPT, that may be a tool for others to use, even beyond what is apparently done now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 2 hours ago, Muttsy said: Chubb has a market cap of only 75B; Hartford 25B. They are truly playing with fire now. Stupid is as stupid does. Just look at BSA. We may eventually see both Chubb and the Hartford in their own Ch 11’s. I sure hope they have adequate insurance for corporate blunders of that magnitude. Would that be D&O plus E&O? Could that external layer be tapped as a secondary source of their settlement funds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Muttsy Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 24 minutes ago, ThenNow said: 2 hours ago, Muttsy said: Would that be D&O plus E&O? Could that external layer be tapped as a secondary source of their settlement funds? Yes. I’m not sure if the settlement trustee could tap it or whether it would be limited to shareholders. Theoretically in a Chubb bankruptcy everything would be up for grabs. Chubb has the money. It reported net assets of 190B and 41B in premium revenues in 2020. Forbes Mag. Chubb has a strong balance sheet. It could issue debt or sell additional stock. It could, if forced, pay 50B. Why should the trustee settle cheap? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DavidLeeLambert Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 On 6/19/2021 at 12:05 PM, Eagle1970 said: What is the significance of the letter I received last night titled: " Service of Notice of Designation of Additional Permitted Parties Under Bar Date Order"? I understand what it says but don't get why an additional party is becoming involved. Who are the additional parties? Your (ex-) local council, or (ex-) chartered organization? A new official committee? An insurer? Or someone else? Basically, if it's what I think it is, it means that the lawyers (and perhaps even other personnel) for the additional specified party or parties can read the full details of your claim. They're still not supposed to share it further, or publish it to the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 1 hour ago, DavidLeeLambert said: Who are the additional parties? Your (ex-) local council, or (ex-) chartered organization? A new official committee? An insurer? Or someone else? The CO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bronco1821 Posted June 21, 2021 Share Posted June 21, 2021 So I hope I am understanding this complex case.... Ballpark timing... 2 months to vote and approve BSA deal After that, about 6 months to deal with insurance companies and any Chartered Organizations. Then the court appointed trustee will review each case and determine compensation...that could take a really long time... so we are 12 - 18 months away from any conclusion? Is that possible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagle1970 Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, DavidLeeLambert said: Who are the additional parties? Your (ex-) local council, or (ex-) chartered organization? A new official committee? An insurer? Or someone else? Basically, if it's what I think it is, it means that the lawyers (and perhaps even other personnel) for the additional specified party or parties can read the full details of your claim. They're still not supposed to share it further, or publish it to the world. I am reluctant to post it. But, it is the Catholic self-insurance, as the parish sponsored my troop. Edited June 22, 2021 by Eagle1970 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 45 minutes ago, Bronco1821 said: After that, about 6 months to deal with insurance companies and any Chartered Organizations. 6 months to deal with the insurance companies is remarkably optimistic. And if this is a "global" deal, any COs that contribute to the settlement are going to be covered. See Exhibits C and D. "Contributing Chartered Organizations" https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/75cad6f2-cc34-4b0c-896f-0d26815b1189_5368.pdf And the trustee review process could take years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mrjohns2 Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 1 minute ago, Eagle1970 said: I am reluctant to post it. But, it the Catholic self-insurance, as the parish sponsored my troop. I never even thought about CO insurance being a worthwhile target. I keep thinking our CO, the PTO. But most of the religious institutions would have some decently deep pockets as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johnsch322 Posted June 22, 2021 Share Posted June 22, 2021 48 minutes ago, Bronco1821 said: So I hope I am understanding this complex case.... Ballpark timing... 2 months to vote and approve BSA deal After that, about 6 months to deal with insurance companies and any Chartered Organizations. Then the court appointed trustee will review each case and determine compensation...that could take a really long time... so we are 12 - 18 months away from any conclusion? Is that possible? I would say 12 to 18 months for money from BSA and LC’s and 3 to 4 years for insurance money. They will be fighting and delaying at every turn. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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