Chapter 11 Announced - Part 4 Revised Plan

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

In the legal filings they are called the "Base Matrix Value" or "Maximum Matrix Value".

Related, and I sure I asked this before among my interminable obsession with probing, does anyone have any clue the pool of candidates for Settlement Trustee? Like Future Claimant Representatives and Tort Claimants’ counsel, it has to be aa fairly small universe. I know the TCC, Coalition and FCR will select that person, but curious if there is any narrowing to be done in this vacuum I am occupying. 

[Muttsy]

11 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

 

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

In the legal filings they are called the "Base Matrix Value" or "Maximum Matrix Value".

Related, and I sure I asked this before among my interminable obsession with probing, does anyone have any clue the pool of candidates for Settlement Trustee? Like Future Claimant Representatives and Tort Claimants’ counsel, it has to be aa fairly small universe. I know the TCC, Coalition and FCR will select that person, but curious if there is any narrowing to be done in this vacuum I am occupying. 

 

This question concerns me enormously. These bankruptcy creatures see these cases as their own personal goldmines. I’m certain the jockeying and horse-trading is going on. They all want a piece of that gravy train, too. Coalition lawyer David Molton (Brown Rudnick positioned himself to be the PG&E Trustee. Enormous fees to his firm. I’m sure Stang’s firm wants a cut of the action, too. 
They’ll try to get their people on the advisory committee to secure their selection. They hire their “friends” to do work. The settlement trustee approves their fees. The bankruptcy court plays no oversight role. The case is closed. The settlement trustee is all powerful. 
 

I will vote and urge others to.vote for the plan if it installs any of the bankruptcy attorneys in a position to control the selection of the trustee. It should be a complete outsider. Some one like Irwin Pickard who was the trustee in the Madoff case. He recovered over 80% of the Madoff victims’ losses. 
 

Ken Friedberg was trustee for the 911 Fund and the BP oil spill disasters. He’s known to be ferociously independent and reasonable. 
 

There are other candidates who would be fine. But I don’t trust any of the long knives involved in this bankruptcy. Some are involved in other mass tort cases where they ended up taking 75% of the pot as compensation to the trustee and his lawyers. 
 

These are very dangerous waters we are entering. 

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, Muttsy said:

There are other candidates who would be fine. But I don’t trust any of the long knives involved in this bankruptcy. Some are involved in other mass tort cases where they ended up taking 75% of the pot as compensation to the trustee and his lawyers. 

Yeah. ... I never envisioned it getting to 75%, but I would not be surprised.  This whole case smells like a gravy train (with more words I'll avoid adding).  But then again, we've been told to not speak badly of the motives of the lawyers involved.  ... It's just hard not to with $1500 hourly rates, the massive monthly bills and a big slice off the top at the end.  I just don't see any good coming from this case.  Period.

Edited June 23, 2021 by fred8033

[skeptic]

On 6/23/2021 at 1:29 PM, ThenNow said:

In what way? We’re creditors and most have a defined amount on their invoices. We don’t, it must be gauged by comp’s and past BSA settlements/award and recent settlements/judgements on similar sexual abuse cases. BSA and the insurers refused a mutual estimation, so there you go. 

Or, do you mean that it’s wrong to say someone’s injury, pain, suffering and financial other impacts can be reduced to a “valuation”?

(deleted)  Sorry, but I am simply tired of the BS of somehow thinking money can cure everything.  (deleted).  Just my opinion, and I understand you suffered considerable based on what you have shred.  Not to be crude, but if someone said here is a billion dollars, now leave it alone, would that somehow cure you?  I doubt it, but you, and others with similar stories would have simply had a hand in causing harm to others through the unfeeling system of vengeance.  Again, just my perspective, and it applies not just to this unfortunate case.  Vengeance at the expense of others who had no hand in the original crime is wrong, almost as wrong as the original crimes.  Good luck, but enough with the denial that somehow it is okay to destroy BSA (deleted).  None of you will ever be healed, and I have no real solution, other than trying to make the systems work to protect others going forward and bringing predators to justice when the actual perpetrators are still around to be punished.  Again, just the way it seems to me.

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by elitts
disallowed commentary for this thread.

[CynicalScouter]

On 6/23/2021 at 4:14 PM, skeptic said:

(original comment deleted)

response to unacceptable comment deleted along with originating comment by Moderator

Edited June 28, 2021 by elitts
disallowed commentary for this thread.

[johnsch322]

On 6/23/2021 at 4:14 PM, skeptic said:

Sorry, but I am simply tired of the BS of somehow thinking money can cure everything. 

You are correct that money cannot cure everything.  However restitution for pain, mental suffering, loss of possible wages (personally I think I underachieved in this life because of the abuse), my daughters suffering from my emotional unavailability (if there is enough restitution at some point she will benefit) and the fact I realize now I might need mental care the rest of my lifetime so restitution/money won't cure me but it will make my life easier.  

Are you so naive to think that the BSA ever cared for those of us who were abused?  Did they ever reach out and say hey we have issues within BSA and your troop and we suspect you may have been a victim and want to help you?  Hell no they didn't.  Only with legal pressure (deleted) did they do anything positive.  

I read your profile and see you were an ASM in 1966 and 1967 (67 was the year I was raped by 2 adult volunteers) and you have been active in BSA for most of your life.  Did you ever hear of anything going on and if you did were you alerting scouts to this issue? When all of this started to come to light many years ago did you go to the higher ups and say hey we need to do something here.  

(deleted) this was started because to many leaders in troops, and councils, and in the national turned there backs and did not do what was correct.  This in military terms is called a failure to lead.

If it wasn't for lawyers the perversion files would not have seen the light of day.  If it wasn't for the legal system the BSA would still be hiding everything.  If BSA had not hid and covered up what was happening they might not have the wealth they have today since the big reason it was hidden because they did not want their fund raising, donations, and scout levels to drop.

On 6/23/2021 at 4:14 PM, skeptic said:

Good luck, but enough with the denial that somehow it is okay to destroy BSA (deleted)

The TCC has publicly stated that they do not want to destroy the BSA.  (deleted).  And as for your "Good luck" you can keep it...I just want full restitution for all that I deserve.

Edited June 28, 2021 by elitts
disallowed commentary for this thread.

[CynicalScouter]

On 6/23/2021 at 6:02 PM, johnsch322 said:

If it wasn't for lawyers the perversion files would not have seen the light of day.  If it wasn't for the legal system the BSA would still be hiding everything.

 

On 6/23/2021 at 6:02 PM, johnsch322 said:

Only with legal pressure (deleted) did they do anything positive.  

This times a million. If it had not been for several lawsuits, and especially the Oregon one, BSA would still have stifled and stuffed the IV Files away. They appealed all the way to the Oregon Supreme Court to try and avoid releasing that information.

The victims and their lawyers (deleted) were the ones who forced those files open and forced BSA to admit at least a little bit what it had done. BSA wasn't about to admit anything.

If it were not for the victims and their lawyers (deleted) in the prior BSA sexual abuse cases (and I will say secondarily the Catholic sexual abuse cases which prompted a lot of re-examinations in this area) BSA wasn't about to lift a finger to help anyone.

Edited June 28, 2021 by elitts
disallowed commentary for this thread.

[ThenNow]

4 hours ago, Muttsy said:

These are very dangerous waters we are entering. 

[gulp]

[ThenNow]

4 hours ago, Muttsy said:

The settlement trustee is all powerful. 

Back to my preponderance and discovery musings. How does the typical Great and Powerful Oz adjudicate such a thing as our multitudinous diverse and complex cases? What methods of discovery, examination…subpoena powers, etc.? Those other cases had pretty clear claimant “creditors.” Not so much in this quagmire. 

[ThenNow]

On 6/23/2021 at 4:14 PM, skeptic said:

(deleted) Sorry, but I am simply tired of the BS of somehow thinking money can cure everything.  As I have noted before, our entire legal system in this country is a convoluted cesspool of greed and mostly uncaring legal predators.  Just my opinion, and I understand you suffered considerable based on what you have shred.  Not to be crude, but if someone said here is a billion dollars, now leave it alone, would that somehow cure you?  I doubt it, but you, and others with similar stories would have simply had a hand in causing harm to others through the unfeeling system of vengeance.  Again, just my perspective, and it applies not just to this unfortunate case.  Vengeance at the expense of others who had no hand in the original crime is wrong, almost as wrong as the original crimes.  Good luck, but enough with the denial that somehow it is okay to destroy BSA or to line the pockets of the vulture lawyers.  None of you will ever be healed, and I have no real solution, other than trying to make the systems work to protect others going forward and bringing predators to justice when the actual perpetrators are still around to be punished.  Again, just the way it seems to me.

Sorry, but you’ve not read much that’s been posted on this topic and this single post churns up and belches out most of the accusatory batch and takes further pot shots. This talk of “cure, vengeance, heal, destroy”…has been used before and said again and said some more. It’s self delusion. You’re  not listening, but to your own spin, anger and “perspective.” No one, that I’ve read, said or suggested any of the things you allege and rename to suit this argument. I begged for this to stop waaaay back when and I thought this was curtailed, both by self restraint and moderator intervention. I join the several substantive rebuttals to your post. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by elitts
disallowed commentary for this thread.

[skeptic]

On 6/23/2021 at 4:51 PM, CynicalScouter said:

(deleted). I was under the impression the mods had said enough of this. In fact, I know for a fact they said this.

People who are injured under the American (and indeed English common law from whence our jurisprudence came) system of civil justice have a right to seek tort damages compensated through the judicial process. They also have the right to seek out legal counsel to that end.

(deleted)

(deleted)

No more comments, though maybe see if any actual new info shows up with actual solutions that are balanced.  To answer your other rude question, at least twice we turned someone in for possible abuse, and investigations were done.  It was not sexual abuse though.  We also contacted one family in regard to a teen scout that was abusing another youth.  The parents refused to accept, but the authorities were told in regard to his being in public schools.  We did our due diligence if we had information, but we cannot make authorities follow up, and too often, as in some of these cases has shown, it was not just the BSA that dropped the ball.  But government is protected it seems and are let off the hook.  I hope they come to a fair and rational outcome, and it includes little or no compensation for certain legal people.

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by elitts
disallowed commentary for this thread.

[MattR]

On 6/23/2021 at 4:14 PM, skeptic said:

Sorry, but I am simply tired of the BS of somehow thinking money can cure everything. 

Since money can't cure everything, why does the BSA need so much of it? That may sound really insulting or negative, but it's worth thinking about. When I saw how much money my council has sitting around, and they can't hire a full time camp director, it really annoyed me. Right now they have openings for every position at summer camp. It's the same old issue, they wait until the last moment and they hire anyone with a pulse. And summer camp depends entirely on good staff.

Furthermore, it seems to me the most important job of the SE is to get donations to put in the endowment. That's all about money. So someone in the BSA seems to think money can solve everything.

On 6/23/2021 at 4:14 PM, skeptic said:

Good luck, but enough with the denial that somehow it is okay to destroy BSA (deleted)

Destroyed sounds like a really big assumption to me. Honestly, the BSA is doing a fine job of destroying itself without the sexual abuse. If anything, there might be some insurance companies in some hot water but the BSA is doing okay.

Skeptic, I understand your frustration. This is one more problem the BSA has to deal with. But it's not the only problem. Assuming the BSA does improve YP, which I'm a little bit optimistic about, it won't even be as bad a problem as the others.

I went to my troop meeting yesterday and was disappointed how it was being run. All the older scouts and a bunch of parents were working on a HA trip and the younger scouts were, essentially, being led like cub scouts by some parents. So I went to the SM and asked when the next campout was. I made his day. He asked if I could help run something for the younger scouts like I did back when I was SM. I got the names of a few older scouts that would not be on the HA trip. The point is, my troop putting on a good program is about all I can control these days, and helping some scouts make a good memory is all I really care about because it's the only thing that I can do that might help scouting.

Edited June 28, 2021 by elitts

[ThenNow]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

They appealed all the way to the Oregon Supreme Court to try and avoid releasing that information.

Amen. BSA’s candor and willingness to step up and care for sexual abuse victims in Scouting has an odd smell to it. As in:

1) spending reportedly 100’s of thousands of bucks on lobbying to defeat Child Victims Act legislation;

2) failing to do any injury-type annual reporting on CSA in Scouting;

3) until forced, refusing to disclose the IVF, even to their own experts who were studying dangers in Scouting;

4) not getting truly serious with YPT compliance until CSA cases were crashing over the ramparts;

5) being unwilling to share past CSA settlements with the TCC; and

6) generally dragging anchor on this case.

I say again, there would be no wave of attorneys if there had been no abuse. No abuse = no victims, 1 or 82,000. Lawyers need clients to aim at a target. The BSA painted that target and walked around with it on their back for years. Now, some are yelping because the arrows are hitting the mark. 

Edited June 24, 2021 by ThenNow

[johnsch322]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

From my view, their methods do, and not just in this case.  There are dozens, maybe thousands of these kinds of cases.  It is how they go about it, and their unreasonable expectations, as well as the larger damage that makes them scavengers.  But, really, vultures serve a real purpose, so I will take it back.  They are simply greedy and unconscionable.  And out and gone.  No more comments, though maybe see if any actual new info shows up with actual solutions that are balanced.  To answer your other rude question, at least twice we turned someone in for possible abuse, and investigations were done.  It was not sexual abuse though.  We also contacted one family in regard to a teen scout that was abusing another youth.  The parents refused to accept, but the authorities were told in regard to his being in public schools.  We did our due diligence if we had information, but we cannot make authorities follow up, and too often, as in some of these cases has shown, it was not just the BSA that dropped the ball.  But government is protected it seems and are let off the hook.  I hope they come to a fair and rational outcome, and it includes little or no compensation for certain legal people.

 

What methods are you talking about? The advertising in Facebook and other media with the headline "Were you abused in Scouting" well thank god they did because until then I thought I was the only one.  BSA knew 11 to 13 boys in my troop had been abused but not one person from BSA asked me that question.

How they go about what? Bring lawsuits against the BSA?  There had been dozens of lawsuits successfully won and or settled prior to all of this. These were just the miniscule tip of the proverbial iceberg.  The BSA was so afraid of sinking like the Titanic that they entered into Bankruptcy thinking it was the easiest the inevitable.  

Unreasonable expectations? So is restitution in the amount of say $500,000, $1,000,000, 10,000,000 or $20,000,000 unreasonable?  If you were the victim of 2 men when you were a boy, lived a life of hell and had the unspeakable happen to you what amount would be reasonable.  The only reason the number is $103 Billion is because of the shear number of cases.  The cost of mental health care itself can run into the 100's of thousands of dollars.  Not everyone has insurance resources and must pay these expenses out of pocket.

The larger damage? Damn don't exactly know where to go with that.  BSA will be allowed to live on but mine and possibly 100's of thousands of lives were destroyed by BSA policies of cover up and hide.

Solutions that are balanced?  I think you are trying to say solutions that cost the BSA less assets. Am I mistaken?

I am glad to hear that you did your due diligence if you had information but as you say they weren't sexual.  Follow up should be with the victim making sure the aren't goods afterwards.

BSA dropped the ball?  Heck they did the proverbial we own the ball and we make the rules.  Their rule was deny deny,  and hide the facts.  Lobby against anything that might damage our reputation and don't ever do anything that might help the victims of our rules.

Fair and rational outcome?  What would you consider fair and rational? Needing legal help in this situation I signed away 33.3% (contingent) of my settlement which (which is fair and reasonable). If you wish my lawyer/law firm to get little or no compensation you are wishing the same for myself and most other victims/survivors.

[mrjohns2]

For a long time I was very much mad at the lawyers. I don’t know why, but through the discussion I am ambivalent towards them. The victims hired them, understand their fees, and are ok with it. I am now ok with it too. Go back and see some my old posts, I have changed my opinion.