Chapter 11 Announced - Part 4 Revised Plan

[SiouxRanger]

@CynicalScouter Thanks from me and frankly, surely everyone, for tracking on the status of National's bankruptcy pleadings, and the procedural steps, past and pending, in the Bankruptcy case. And your commentary thereon.

It is no small task to monitor, summarize, and report on the significance of pleadings filed.

Your efforts surely enable many non-lawyers to meaningfully follow along on a largely otherwise indecipherable process.

Thank you.

[David CO]

1 hour ago, fred8033 said:

deleted for being out of date.

Oh no!   Fred was deleted for being out of date!     I am out of date.  I hope I don't get deleted, too!  

[skeptic]

7 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

I posted about this in June. There is still some confusion.

The official name was the Ineligible Volunteer Files (IVF).

A person could be added to the IVF for a variety of reasons, https://documents.latimes.com/boy-scouts-paper-trail-of-abuse-documents/

There were six categories

1. Perversion
2. Morals
3. Financial
4. Leadership
5. Theft
6. Criminal

Clearly for purposes of the sexual abuse lawsuit(s) going back into the 1990s, some of these were more relevant than others. The "Perversion" files, while the biggest subset, were not the ONLY subset, however people mislabel ALL the IVF files as the "perversion" files.

Thank you for the more focused info; so the larger file is the IVF, but within it there are sub files, one of which is P and another M, both which play into the larger issue.  

[skeptic]

21 hours ago, ThenNow said:

Yup. Here I am.

As I've tried to say, love or hate, this man has represented victims of child sexual abuse against BSA since 1996. That's 25 years. Even though he was "wound down" by 2018, he obviously unwound the winding when the BSA Chapter 11 rumors got serious. People can say all they want about the evils of making 40+% on a contingent basis, cast all the aspersions in the book at attorneys for all the various reasons and question mixed motives until the cows come home. Imagine what he has seen and heard. Hundreds of client victims. Hundreds of negotiations with the BSA and its counsel. Thousands of pages of documents and disclosures, including the years he spent reading, researching and reducing to data sheets the 3200 IVFs he dislodged from BSA. He knows this stuff very, very well. If he has decided it's unredeemable darkness, I give that to him. I've not seen, heard or been witness to what he has. Have any of us?

I am not saying his (apparent) endgame is the best for all, because I don't know. I'm just saying let's temper our accusations with fact, history and context.

"I'm just saying let's temper our accusations with fact, history and context."  Yes, maybe we ALL should do that.  Of course, that means we need to make comparisons to the larger society as well, and, at least the one referenced study linked earlier would indicate that BSA has done a better job than most, and that in wider context, its program was safer than many other comparable involvements.  But that cannot become the standard, even though the completely safe status is basically  impossible, more awareness and NOT ignoring the guidelines is imperative.  The study referenced should also be looked at by other youth serving groups, and the public safety organizations and become an incentive for them to also do a far better job.  

[CynicalScouter]

1 hour ago, skeptic said:

at least the one referenced study linked earlier would indicate that BSA has done a better job than most,

I’ve mentioned this before and I’ll say it again: trying to use the number of sexual abuse claims filed in this case as an indicator of how prevalent abuse was in BSA is methodologically unsound.

we don’t KNOW how many scouts were abused. All we know, maybe, is 82,500 people claim abuse. There were likely thousands if not tens of thousands more victims who did not file for a host of reasons.

Moreover given that BSA deliberately destroyed files from the “perversion files” subcategory of the IVF files we will never know the full scope.

What we do know is BSA has a history of denying, destroying, and deflecting.

We know for example when BSA did its own internal “safety” review it did not even acknowledge or allow the internal reviewer access to the P files. That led to the statement a scout was more likely to drown in scouts than to be sexually abused. Of course we now know that was a flat out lie and BSA’s own files showed that.

[Eagledad]

43 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

we don’t KNOW how many scouts were abused. All we know, maybe, is 82,500 people claim abuse. There were likely thousands if not tens of thousands more victims who did not file for a host of reasons.

You have said this before and you should stop because it's purely conjecture based on nothing.

I'm an engineer and we learn quickly that quality of the design, and safety in my field, is the result of the precision of facts and elements used in development. Anything less looses integrity. We all have our quirks and the scouts in my troop (and my kids) learned quickly that I am a patient man/father until someone spreads guesses and conjecture as facts. Once they do that, they loose integrity, and that is hard to earn back. 

In this case, I know a lot of elderly Eagles Scouts who were approached several times in the last couple years to join this law suit. And what about all those TV commercials in front of millions of viewers. The temptation for easy gain was very tempting.

43 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Moreover given that BSA deliberately destroyed files from the “perversion files” subcategory of the IVF files we will never know the full scope.

 

Exactly! We will never know the full scope. Any guess that is used to forward an opinion is just an emotion looking for an audience.. 

I saw a poll a few months ago that showed the American public has the lowest respect for the American new media ever. Is anyone surprised by the loss of that Integrity?

Barry

[Sentinel947]

@Eagledad it's conjecture, but it's likely correct given that sexual assault and rape is statistically underreported, particularly in males. 

It's also possible that some of these claims are fake. 

Both things can exist simultaneously. 

[ThenNow]

28 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I'm an engineer and we learn quickly that quality of the design, and safety in my field, is the result of the precision of facts and elements used in development.

Wait, Mr. Engineer. You never, ever, not even once used even a teeny tiny itty bitty bit of predictive modeling or analytics based on hard data to calculate and extrapolate in your research and design? Hm. Curious. Never? Never, ever, cross your heart and hope to die? Pinkie swear, too?

32 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

looses integrity

Yes. Indeed. Interestingly, I long ago discovered that after drinking too much alcohol and/or puffing too much weed, my integrity became easily loosened, as well. Random personal history note for my fan base.  

36 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

We will never know the full scope. Any guess that is used to forward an opinion is just an emotion looking for an audience.. 

What? (See, above, regarding predictive modeling, and, etc. Read several times.)

[CynicalScouter]

1 hour ago, Eagledad said:

You have said this before and you should stop because it's purely conjecture based on nothing.

It’s not conjecture we know for example sexual abuse victims that died before 2020 couldn’t possibly have filed claims.

 

so if you wanna go down this road of claiming that only 82,000 people were abuse victims or all 82,000 are a bunch of liars by all means go down that road

Edited August 12, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ThenNow]

4 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

so if you wanna go down this road of claiming that only 82,000 people work abuse victims ir all 82,000 or a bunch of liars by all means go down that road

Yes. And, if and when you do, please send back daily reports from the field. I think it will be a lonely path and you'll need pen pals. Just sayin...

[CynicalScouter]

Just FYI I have work but will try to listen to the hearing. So far IT/Zoom problems have caused the hearing to stop in the first minute.

[ThenNow]

6 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Just FYI I have work but will try to listen to the hearing. So far IT/Zoom problems have caused the hearing to stop in the first minute.

Yup. So, far, some of these attorneys have made $675 for listening to the court IT guy.

[Eagledad]

45 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Wait, Mr. Engineer. You never, ever, not even once used even a teeny tiny itty bitty bit of predictive modeling or analytics based on hard data to calculate and extrapolate in your research and design? Hm. Curious. Never? Never, ever, cross your heart and hope to die? Pinkie swear, too?

 

Oh, I see. You're only using a teeny, tiny itty bitty bitty predictive model. Well that is different. See how well that works when engineers used the same amount of design to defend a car wreck or plane crash..

You folks admittingly don't have a clue of the numbers, high or low. Nobody does. Lots of emotion, but not a lot of data.

I'm curious, I can understand lawyers using these numbers in court to your advantage. But what do you gain defending those numbers on this forum where it doesn't make a difference. You're situation implies an obvious bias, so you aren't changing any minds. I don't get it.

Barry

[MYCVAStory]

11 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

You folks admittingly don't have a clue of the numbers, high or low. Nobody does. Lots of emotion, but not a lot of data.

I'm curious, I can understand lawyers using these numbers in court to your advantage. But what do you gain defending those numbers on this forum where it doesn't make a difference. You're situation implies an obvious bias, so you aren't changing any minds. I don't get it.

Multi-tasking while the hearing proceeds.....  Your comments will certainly create head-shaking.  I'd like you to consider one accepted principle of abuse, especially among men. That is the fact that it takes years and decades for people, again, especially men, to come forward as victims of sexual abuse.  While the validation process will determine the number of unduplicated valid claims I'd like you to consider that there will also be many many victims who have not come forward, or never will, or may later in life.  PLEASE do your research into the prevalence and behavior of sexual abuse victims, especially males.  Here's a place to start: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15894146/   "Contact CSA was reported by 16% of males"  Again, PLEASE spend some time educating yourself regarding this topic and ask questions.  The shared experience in this forum, while not always in agreement, really helps understanding this topic not only quantitatively but also qualitatively.  You, like many, might find your assumptions changed.

[Eagledad]

Just now, MYCVAStory said:

Multi-tasking while the hearing proceeds.....  Your comments will certainly create head-shaking.  I'd like you to consider one accepted principle of abuse, especially among men. That is the fact that it takes years and decades for people, again, especially men, to come forward as victims of sexual abuse.  While the validation process will determine the number of unduplicated valid claims I'd like you to consider that there will also be many many victims who have not come forward, or never will, or may later in life.  PLEASE do your research into the prevalence and behavior of sexual abuse victims, especially males.  Here's a place to start: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15894146/   "Contact CSA was reported by 16% of males"  Again, PLEASE spend some time educating yourself regarding this topic and ask questions.  The shared experience in this forum, while not always in agreement, really helps understanding this topic not only quantitatively but also qualitatively.  You, like many, might find your assumptions changed.

What are my assumptions? 

Barry