Approving of Troop Budgets...

[GrammaScout]

Hello out there...our 'Church' recently decided to put the Annual Budget of the Troop on the ballot for

voting on at the Annual Meeting after 50+ years.  This 'group' recently learned that to give a donor  to the Troop

a  tax-deductible receipt, the Church (the CO) had to include their Tax ID number and a few of them went

'ballistic'...thinking that any 'irregularities' in the Troop Funds would flag the IRS leaving the Church open for

an audit....!!  This is S.O.P. for all non-profits, of course.  It is my understanding that this has also been S.O.P.

forever for Troops chartered by churches.   Am I correct so far?     

How would the IRS even see any irregularities, IF there were any?

We have a member who is a retired Naval Intelligence Officer and then, now, also a retired Federal Agent for

the IRS.   He grinned and chuckled at all this.   The IRS does not go after 'small fish', he said.  And our Church

like nearly all Churches are considered to be 'small fish'.   IF IF IF the IRS did flag something, an agent would

be sent to the Church to teach how to do things correctly...rather than the paranoid thoughts that the IRS

would shut-down the Church and the Pastor would go to Prison!......

Many of us also are concerned that we are asking members nearly all of whom have NO knowledge or experience

working with a Troop and understanding how the funds are used or designated or 'moved over', etc.  Is that some

sort of 'voter fraud', perhaps?   

 

 

 

 

[CynicalScouter]

15 minutes ago, GrammaScout said:

Many of us also are concerned that we are asking members nearly all of whom have NO knowledge or experience working with a Troop and understanding how the funds are used or designated or 'moved over', etc.  Is that some sort of 'voter fraud', perhaps?   

The church is completely within its rights to review any and all financial statements as well as approving same. It is, after all, the church's money, the church's Tax ID, and the church's unit.

I fail to see the problem.

Inconvenient? Sure.

Annoying? yes.

"Voter fraud"? What does "voter fraud" even MEAN in this context? Are you alleging the Church's vote on your budget will be rigged or somehow some kind of fraud occur? Wha?

Edited June 11, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[fred8033]

This sounds like an over zealous volunteer situation.   I've never seen a church vote on a unit budget.  I've scene the budget submitted at times, but never voted on.  Church has the right, but umm ... doesn't happen.  

[GrammaScout]

On 6/11/2021 at 2:29 PM, fred8033 said:

This sounds like an over zealous volunteer situation.   I've never seen a church vote on a unit budget.  I've scene the budget submitted at times, but never voted on.  Church has the right, but umm ... doesn't happen.  

 

[GrammaScout]

I've canvassed twelve Church CO's in my area...and none of them, like you, has never heard of such a thing.

This came from those I described earlier,  Staff, Council, and Elected Leaders...who had never heard of a Church

CO preparing a TAX-deductible receipt for a donor and of course, using the non-profit Tax-ID number of the

Church.  It just happened to have come about when they had just learned about the 'own' concept of the CO's.

They became paranoid that some 'irregularity' in the Troop Funds...would trigger the IRS resulting in an audit

of the CHURCH....and' jokingly saying that 'they would close the doors and send the Pastor to Prison'...except 

that it wasn't all joking.  They were overtaken by baseless paranoia.

Does the IRS ever see a Troop Budget?....of course, not.

All non-profits give tax deductible receipts to donors using THEIR TaxID numbers to make it valid.   It might be

said that it is a 'daily occurence' somewhere across the US....This Troop asks for one...one per year....Once they 

needed two.

We are embarrassed by the ignorance and distressed with the fear-mongering.   After 50 years, to suddenly 

start this, seems to emit an essence of mistrust and suspicion.

So:   No one out there whose CO is a Church, has ever heard of putting the Troop Budget up for a congregational

vote at their Annual Meeting........!     correct???

[GrammaScout]

Dear Cynical:  ''Voter Fraud' was an off the cuff comment from a couple of others.  They were thinking of it as making a group of members (the quorum)

vote on something of which they had no knowledge and therefore were not informed voters.  The questions asked last year proved that part, and it is logical they would NOT have any knowledge.  

[Eagle1993]

This does not seem common from my experience; however, it did happen to my Troop as a youth shortly after I aged out.  A new COR for our Troop decided to take our Troop funds and put it in their general fund.  Any money we would need would then need to be approved by the Church.  Any fundraiser would go to the commingled fund. Many of us had scout accounts and it was the only way many afforded to go to camp or BWCA.  Those were taken. Our Troop disbanded within a year. 
 

Here is a FAQ for BSA’s fiscal policy. 

https://www.scouting.org/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/Fiscal_Policies_and_Procedures_for_-BSA_Units_20210513.pdf

[GrammaScout]

On 6/11/2021 at 2:17 PM, CynicalScouter said:

The church is completely within its rights to review any and all financial statements as well as approving same. It is, after all, the church's money, the church's Tax ID, and the church's unit.

I fail to see the problem.

Inconvenient? Sure.

Annoying? yes.

"Voter fraud"? What does "voter fraud" even MEAN in this context? Are you alleging the Church's vote on your budget will be rigged or somehow some kind of fraud occur? Wha?

Sorry, but there is a comment further down that describes something similar and it killed the Troop.   First off:  it is NOT the Church's money !!    The money is from Fundraisers and from Parents and/or Donors.    People who have NO clue about how Scouting is supposed to work, who have NO understanding of how Troop Budgets work, etc....should not be qualified to 'vote' on anything regarding Troop funds.     ..... Voter Fraud?    a term suggested TO me by another...the thought being that there would be people voting on something about which they knew nothing....making them ineligible voters, just like some organizations have broken voting rules........not the best, but I understood his point at the time he said it.

 

[KublaiKen]

If you click on the link above, you will see that the unit's funds are owned by the Chartered Organization or by Council, depending on how the unit is chartered.

[qwazse]

Yes the funds belong to the CO for the purpose of implementing scouting.

That means that if someone pilfers those funds to enhance their bass boat, the church (in your case) has every right to take legal action.

If it really matters to them, provide projected income and expenses and end-of-year balance, and they can add it to their financial statement.

Persons wanting to more details can get trained and registered on the troop committee.

[fred8033]

I'd avoid talking too much about who's money it is or who owns what.  Getting a clean "legal" answer is not what you need and you might not like the answer. 

Troops work mostly on Gentleman's Agreements between groups and individuals.  Most people at a charter and unit understand what that means and it works.  When those agreements are violated, people get upset; relationships are broken; and, people leave both the unit and the charter (usually a church).  No one wants that, usually.

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 1/17/2023 at 3:28 AM, GrammaScout said:

 First off:  it is NOT the Church's money !! 

LOL, yes it is 😜  Technically, only "entities" can "own" property, including money.  Unless you incorporate your unit, it cannot "own" anything.  If our COR ever wants a financial statement, we would subtract out of the bank account balance any monies paid by Scouts or parents into Scout accounts.  Any monies fundraised belong to the COR.  All property and gear belong to the COR.

Now, they cannot just "take" your funds and put it in their general account.  If your unit has a bank account, only the signatories on that account can dispose of the funds. 

If our COR demanded our cash, we would pay back all monies deposited by parents and Scouts, and equally distribute all remaining monies and pay tuition for Summer Camp (which should just about wipe out the fund), and start looking for a new COR that we'd go to after Summer Camp.  Since the monies are used for the purposes of Scouting, they'd have no recourse...

 

19 hours ago, fred8033 said:

I'd avoid talking too much about who's money it is or who owns what.  Getting a clean "legal" answer is not what you need and you might not like the answer. 

Avoiding a question does not answer it...  See answer above...

 

On 1/17/2023 at 3:28 AM, GrammaScout said:

the thought being that there would be people voting on something about which they knew nothing....making them ineligible voters

 Sounds like most of the voters in our country 😜

[fred8033]

3 hours ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

If our COR demanded our cash, we would pay back all monies deposited by parents and Scouts, and equally distribute all remaining monies and pay tuition for Summer Camp (which should just about wipe out the fund), and start looking for a new COR that we'd go to after Summer Camp.  Since the monies are used for the purposes of Scouting, they'd have no recourse...

That act itself would be morally wrong and legally dangerous.  If the bank account was opened with the charter org's non-profit number and you acted against their explicit direction and effectively disposed of the funds before handing them over, it could get ugly.  Would legal charges happen?  Depends on if you are talking $2,000 or $20,000 or $50,000.  I know our pack checking account had $15,000+ at times depending on fundraising cycle. 

You would absolutely be burning any relationship and reputation and cause a long-term schism in the community.  

Unit leaders represent the CO and need to work in good faith.

 

[InquisitiveScouter]

On 1/19/2023 at 12:10 PM, fred8033 said:

That act itself would be morally wrong and legally dangerous.

You are wrong on both accounts.

Edited January 22, 2023 by InquisitiveScouter

[scoutldr]

The prudent church Treasurer would insist on an annual audit of Unit accounts and the Unit committee should welcome it.  Keep everything transparent and above board.  In addition to "annual", an audit should also occur whenever the Unit Treasurer duties change hands.