Unit refuses to hold elections

[Eagledad]

One suggestion for simple ideas to work the challenge is require 20 nights of camping with the troop plus at least one consecutive 5 night camping trip with the Troop. That would force being active with the troop for at least 2 years. 

Barry 

[mrjohns2]

3 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

That would force being active with the troop for at least 2 years. 

Well, it would force them to be very active, but since our troop camps each month, you could do it i one year. We have 1 campout that is 1 day, so for us a Scout could get 21 and 5 in a year. 

[mrjohns2]

2 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I remember when you could be told to leave the Ordeal if you were not following directions. Now it is considered "hazing" if you tell them to leave. That blew my mind when I first was told this.

Hazing is a poor choice of words. One of the reasons why is that the lodge isn't the one that chose the Scout. The Scout's peers are the ones that deemed the Scout worthy for induction. Who is the lodge to say otherwise?

[Eagle94-A1]

6 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Hazing is a poor choice of words. One of the reasons why is that the lodge isn't the one that chose the Scout. The Scout's peers are the ones that deemed the Scout worthy for induction. Who is the lodge to say otherwise?

If a Scout or Scouter cannot properly undergo the tests of the Ordeal, are they truly worthy to join the Order? If the tests really do not mean anything, why bother having them, and let everyone join the OA?

As for "hazing," that is a direct quote from the LA when i asked why we do not send the folks who are not undergoing the tests to leave. 

[Eagledad]

36 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

Well, it would force them to be very active, but since our troop camps each month, you could do it i one year. We have 1 campout that is 1 day, so for us a Scout could get 21 and 5 in a year. 

Yep, I wasn't thinking clearly. 40 nights plus a summer camp.

Barry

[mrjohns2]

29 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

If a Scout or Scouter cannot properly undergo the tests of the Ordeal, are they truly worthy to join the Order?

How would anyone else really know without camping with them for 15 nights? Their worthiness was determined by their peers.

[mrjohns2]

5 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Yep, I wasn't thinking clearly. 40 nights plus a summer camp.

I actually like that idea. A very active scout could do that in 2 years, 3 for a moderately active scout. I could see 40 including 2 summer camps or 40 including 1. 

[Eagledad]

11 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I actually like that idea. A very active scout could do that in 2 years, 3 for a moderately active scout. I could see 40 including 2 summer camps or 40 including 1. 

Yes, it's one simple change that could bring some honor back into the BSA honor society. Of course the program still needs to be attractive for the scouts.

 

15 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

How would anyone else really know without camping with them for 15 nights? Their worthiness was determined by their peers.

Exactly.

Now, how to deal with the new voting scouts who haven't camped yet?

Barry

[mrjohns2]

2 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Now, how to deal with the new voting scouts who haven't camped yet?

Our lodge does elections from 1/1-3/31. We just make sure to do them as late as possible, but before the Webelos cross over. So, for us, about 3/1.  

[Eagle94-A1]

15 hours ago, mrjohns2 said:

Our lodge does elections from 1/1-3/31. We just make sure to do them as late as possible, but before the Webelos cross over. So, for us, about 3/1.  

You do realize that Webelos can Cross Over as early as  December? That would be a problem in our area.

[InquisitiveScouter]

14 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

You do realize that Webelos can Cross Over as early as  December? That would be a problem in our area.

When they complete their AOL, many come to our Troop because they want to do winter camping.

[mrjohns2]

9 hours ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

You do realize that Webelos can Cross Over as early as  December? That would be a problem in our area.

I do. We haven't had any. If we did, we would a) figure it out or b) be in the same spot everyone is. 

If the webelos crossed over in December, we would hold elections on 3/31. That would give them 4-5 campouts with the unit since our webelos camp once in the fall, once in December, and then each month after cross over. So, it would be a non-issue.

Making sure to note that if a Scout doesn't know the Scout that could be elected, they can choose to not vote. Their non-vote is then not in the denominator and doesn't count as no.

[Oldscout448]

On 7/27/2022 at 2:18 PM, mrjohns2 said:

How would anyone else really know without camping with them for 15 nights? Their worthiness was determined by their peers.

As nearly as I can remember this is what Allowat Sakima said to me, and all the candidates, just before the Ordeal started.

"That  you my fellow campers have been chosen by your companions to become members of our band reflects great credit upon your and I congratulate you upon your  election.

 You have impressed upon those who have lived closest to you, the sincerity of your purpose to live in accordance with the high ideals of the Scout Oath..  The judgment of your fellows can hardly have been mistaken. 

Yet, so solemn and so serious is the purpose of our Brotherhood, that it is but right that before we admit you to our circle, that we should  put you to the test, and that you should submit yourselves freely and willingly to the Ordeal by which we shall make trial of your sincerity."  

Sure sounded like a test to me at the time.  Still does.  

And it most certainly still should be.

Because the true value of any award is directly proportional to the effort expended in earning it.  

 

Edited July 29, 2022 by Oldscout448

[Armymutt]

On 7/27/2022 at 9:45 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

I remember when you could be told to leave the Ordeal if you were not following directions. Now it is considered "hazing" if you tell them to leave. That blew my mind when I first was told this.

Sadly I have seen folks talking the entire time, and when asked if they think they deserve to be members, said yes. I have seen an adult be placed in a work party of one, because he was extremely negative, would not stop talking or complaining, and it was affecting the rest of the work party. He got in. Worse was I saw an entire work part stop and refuse to do another thing. Again when I asked why we don't send them home, I was told it would be considered "hazing," and they have to make the decision. IMHO, if they do not follow the rules, they made their decision. Sadly national disagrees.

I saw Elangomats having conversations with Candidates while walking to a work site, like they were just on an outing.  I remember having to mime a saw or shovel in order to communicate what tool we needed.  

[Eagle94-A1]

7 hours ago, Armymutt said:

I saw Elangomats having conversations with Candidates while walking to a work site, like they were just on an outing.  I remember having to mime a saw or shovel in order to communicate what tool we needed.  

i have seen worse. I have seen Elangomats talk, eat and drink both in front of candidates and away from candidates, sleep under tarps, and sleep back in camp away from the candidates. I was taught an Elangomat redoes the entire Ordeal.