Unit refuses to hold elections

[Eagle1993]

48 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

I do not usually respond to your posts as I see them a coming from a perspective that is decades old and may not fit well in today's wold.  

 

I have found my scouting history, Indian Lore MB, OA (with full regalia), attending Pow Wows has helped me develop a great respect of NA people and culture.  I have told my scouts the story of how my BSA experience led me to protest against our University mascot.  (I was ready and excited to see the "authentic" mascot, only to immediately see the costume used was not authentic to the tribes in our area and the "dance" was Hollywood from the 1930s).  While BSA isn't perfect, a lot of the regalia and dances are much more authentic than what is out in larger society and I think it built a health respect of NA culture.

I would love to see BSA & OA strengthen partnerships with tribes.  I think it would be great for both.   Unfortunately, at least in discussions with my scouts, the die has been cast and they don't seem to see the regalia or ceremonies in the same light I did 30-35 years ago.  As I mentioned, they see it as a minstrel show.   I know we are a large country, so what I hear from my scouts likely differs from other Troops.  In the end, it is a good idea to ask lodges to work directly with local tribes ... I am just not convinced that will work throughout the country.

[yknot]

21 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I would love to see BSA & OA strengthen partnerships with tribes.  I think it would be great for both.   Unfortunately, at least in discussions with my scouts, the die has been cast and they don't seem to see the regalia or ceremonies in the same light I did 30-35 years ago.  As I mentioned, they see it as a minstrel show.   I know we are a large country, so what I hear from my scouts likely differs from other Troops.  In the end, it is a good idea to ask lodges to work directly with local tribes ... I am just not convinced that will work throughout the country.

BSA and OA lost a good opportunity to strengthen its relationships with tribes with the disposition of council camp properties. Many of those properties were and are in traditional tribal areas where the land was appropriated from Native Americans and in some cases only a few changes of hands away from its tribal origins. Instead of selling to developers, BSA and OA could have offered some of these properties to their local OA tribes at advantageous terms. There are local tribes in our council area that have been looking for land to use for their own ceremonies and uses. That would have been a much more impactful way to honor Native Americans and the connection BSA claims with them. 

[Eagledad]

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

The council call out I went to had no regalia.  Apparently a local tribe objected when asked.  They still put on a good ceremony. I personally liked what an older scouter said before we headed to the OA call out.  He emphasized cheerful service and that it was an honor to be elected to the OA.  That OA represents the best of scouting and those chosen for the honor should continue their cheerful service.  

 

I agree and have been saying this for years. Outside impression is very important and that used to be Cheerful service and campmenship. Arrowmen in the 70's were the special forces of scouting. Only a few scouts 14 and older (two in our troop) could be voted each year by each member of the troop, so only the best of the best were called out. The Ordeals were challenging and strict. Not passing was not unusual. Quality was the control, not quantity. 

I don't even remember regalia, but it doesn't matter, OA has lost the image of Cheerful Service and Camping to Ceremony actors. I don't know where OA got lost, but my observation of the program now is the adults don't understand the program's moral vision and does ceremonies to provide a reason to exist. 

I was once asked to be the District OA adult sponsor and I declined because I was very busy. I might consider going back as I don't see many opportunities for youth today to learn humility through service and survival skills experts. I would start by training them to find themselves by their scouting expertise, not by uniform. That being said, how the scout wears the uniform should identify a master scout Arrowman.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

OA seems to be in serious trouble and I question it's long term viability.  

I haven't heard this. They may be struggling to find themselves, but they seems to find some place. I guess time will tell, but I haven't seen much hope of change for understanding the vision of service and camping.

 

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

 

Most of my scouts preferred OA call outs to not have regalia.  They seemed open to if if a tribe was partnered with the lodge ... but several compared prior (regalia based) OA callouts to minstrel shows.

 

Hmm, maybe, but I struggle when I hear adults using scouts to justify adult opinions. I have never heard a scout complain about regalia of any type, in fact it was the more the merrier. 

Personally, I hate regalia in scouting (adults and scouts) because it sometimes sets the identity of behavior instead of noble expectations of the Oath and Law. But, regalia can have a place to of furthering expectation in a weak program. Still, I find it hard to believe a scout humbled by the reputation of serving would want to stand out with regalia. 

If Arrowmen are the gurus of the Scout Oath and Law, they will know where regalia fits in their program. I would much rather AO gets out of doing cross-over ceremonies, and public ceremonies in general and instead find honor and nobility by humble actions of service and scoutmanship. They should be called on as experts of camping skills and service projects that units are planning. OA is the first call a new troop should make for help getting their program off to a good start.

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Second ... Perhaps OA isn't just or primarily dedicated to service of council camps.  That worked when councils have several camps, many of which within a short drive.  Council camps are being sold off left/right ... OA should broaden their service.

Hmm. I have no trouble with service to council camps as they require a great deal of help. But, OA is off the rails because they are not seen anymore a service to all. OA should help direct local service for helping community services. Mowing lawns for elderly and picking up trash. I'm only coming up with this at the top of my head, but OA should be experts enough that they lead and teach units to help with a service project. Our troop performed many service projects and used the activates to introduce and teach leadership and followship skills. I can imagine one group of Arrowmen leading several units projects on one weekend. 

 

1 hour ago, Eagle1993 said:

Finally ... Make OA more visible during camporees and other council/district activities.  It seems like I only hear of OA during election & callouts.

 As a result of how our patrol method program ran, our SPLs tended to be more mature than the most of the SPLs at summer camp. As a result, they were typically voted camp SPL. It wasn't a position they particularly wanted because they were very busy being the SPL of our troop. But, my point is that they didn't get that respect from bragging, showing off or pontificating to the other SPLs.  They got it by their mature behavior. When I was a scout, we usually only saw OA at the camporees because they were the judges of the scout skills competitions. They are the skills experts after all. But, they were the known experts of the troop and respected as such. That doesn't happen today because most of the scouts are arrowmen and none of them stick out as masters of scout skills or camping. 

If OA is to become the organization it used to be, it needs to start with adults who believe that character comes from serving others and helping fellow scouts accel in their units. Those kinds of scouts stick out and bring honor to both the OA organization and the units they represent. 

Barry

Edited July 12, 2022 by Eagledad

[Mrjeff]

Without going into a long spheel I  would like to say what I know, not what I  think I know.  Our local Native Americans are of the Creek Nation, and we have a long term Arrowman who is Native American.  We also an individual who is an active and contributing member of the Creek Nation and he has an open invitation to all 9f out events and ceremonies.  They are indeed concerned with the respect in which their heritage is used by the Order of the Arrow and are glad that we honor their heritage.   This I know, not something that is just talked about and surmised.  If someone reaches out to the local Nation, you may be surprised about how open and willing they may be to provide advice and suggestions. And yes, in the event that a member of our

 

 

 

 

[Mrjeff]

Sorry.....I f any member of our lodge wants to invite a Native American to any lodge event, they are welcome without questio .  Another area that the lodge can be of service is training.  Our Chief has agreed to help with some of the required outdoor training for adults.  We also help with council camp service days, camporees, and Cub Scout events.  It takes effort, but is well worth it!

[HashTagScouts]

21 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

The council call out I went to had no regalia.  Apparently a local tribe objected when asked.  They still put on a good ceremony. I personally liked what an older scouter said before we headed to the OA call out.  He emphasized cheerful service and that it was an honor to be elected to the OA.  That OA represents the best of scouting and those chosen for the honor should continue their cheerful service.  

OA seems to be in serious trouble and I question it's long term viability.  Our council OA meetings are an hour away.  Our council camp doesn't have a Scouts BSA program and is over an hour away.  Building a service organization that does anything more than 1-2 events a year is tough as council camps are sold off and councils merge, expanding OA lodges across wide expanses of the state.

Most of my scouts preferred OA call outs to not have regalia.  They seemed open to if if a tribe was partnered with the lodge ... but several compared prior (regalia based) OA callouts to minstrel shows.

First ... I think OA needs to figure out the 1 lodge/council situation.  When we go to 80 councils (or there abouts) post bankruptcy ... 1 lodge/council doesn't work.  I almost think we should have a lodge per district.

Second ... Perhaps OA isn't just or primarily dedicated to service of council camps.  That worked when councils have several camps, many of which within a short drive.  Council camps are being sold off left/right ... OA should broaden their service.

Third ... If there is a tribe that works closely with the lodge, great.  Otherwise, figure out a non NA version of ceremonies.  Don't just copy the NA version without regalia.  Use it as an opportunity to use scouting history ... referencing great scouts of the past.  Dress in full Class A uniforms.  I could imagine some impressive ceremonies that are based on scouting history.

Finally ... Make OA more visible during camporees and other council/district activities.  It seems like I only hear of OA during election & callouts.

Hopefully OA adjusts.  They are a great organization, but have a lot of headwinds.  We will see...

How the Lodge functions operationally can vary, and a lot can depend on the "human capital" factor - though a lot can depend on being stuck in the "we've always done it this way" mode. With your first point, if the Lodge truly has embraced the Chapter usage, it is perfectly fine for Chapters to function fairly independent and recruit their own Chapter ceremonies team, conduct induction weekends themselves (or team up with another Chapter to conduct a joint weekend). Greater Tampa Council is just one example I am aware of that does this.

The OA Lodge is supposed to give "service" by "camp promotion". We've had some spirited debates on what exactly that means. There've been "Beaver days", and some disappointed that the attendance wasn't very big. I just don't think it is terribly realistic that parents are going to drive their kid an hour+ each way to for a four hour workday doing trail maintenance or setting up/taking down canvas. The majority of parents are not in the OA, so their commitment to service isn't the same as the youth. It's been slow getting the other adults in our Lodge to come around to understanding that.    

The directive we have been given is that there needs to be an OA "presence" at every Council event. I don't give our SE credit for being the sharpest knife in the drawer, so I have to believe that is something that he got from above him as a directive. If your Lodge isn't at least working with your Council/District to assist in some way (and it really not need to be more than "any youth working staff for the Camporee is encouraged to wear their OA sash"), I'd have that conversation with your Lodge leadership. Our philosophy is the sash should be bright white when it is given to the individual, but it shouldn't remain that way- the dirtier and grungier the sash is, the more we know that individual has taken the commitment to service to heart.  

[clivusmultrum]

21 hours ago, Eagledad said:

Hmm, maybe, but I struggle when I hear adults using scouts to justify adult opinions. I have never heard a scout complain about regalia of any type, in fact it was the more the merrier

Maybe a difference of time and location. The words I overheard the Scouts using to describe the tap out ceremony were “cringy” and “messed up”. That’s their lingo but I knew what they were seeing. Our Troop has produced only one OA candidate in three years and he politely declined. Some of these kids have a refinement of sensibility beyond my own. But, I can learn. 

Here is a personal analogy. I have hearing aids. Hearing aids now have some crazy attributes from recent technological advancements. For instance my hearing aids prioritize available sounds. Don’t ask me how to explain the programming but they will prioritize the sound of a human voice over a mechanically reproduced voice. When I was first getting used to them it was almost impossible for me to watch TV because it would basically mute the TV in favor of a human voice. A kid could say something from across the house and it drowned out the TV a few feet away. For years, before the hearing aids, I was doing it the other way around. I concentrated on the distracting thing I wanted to listen to rather than the human voices that I really needed to listen to. I think my real deafness has been sort of cultural. I know some of the Scouts out there see know problem with the regalia. But I think its time for circumspection.

 When I said there were no local First Nations people to ask in my area it was not an attempt at humor. My ancestors pushed them off their land. When treaties were made the next administration broke them. I know the OA trappings are meant in fun but I have come to adopt my kids view on this one.

 

 

Edited July 13, 2022 by clivusmultrum

[Eagledad]

58 minutes ago, clivusmultrum said:

 

 When I said there were no local First Nations people to ask in my area it was not an attempt at humor. My ancestors pushed them off their land. When treaties were made the next administration broke them. I know the OA trappings are meant in fun but I have come to adopt my kids view on this one.

 

 

Ah, Ok. At least We can agree to disagree. Have a great week.

Barry

[FireStone]

On 7/3/2022 at 11:58 PM, SiouxRanger said:

... I always thought it was the duty of the SM and assistant scout masters to make program opportunities available which comport with the program, the OA being among them.

If the scouts decide not to participate, so be it, but at least they self-select not to participate...

 

Agreed. I don't think a troop can call itself scout-led if the adults are opting not to allow the troop to have OA elections.

Regarding ceremonies and regalia, I feel like there was a missed opportunity to re-work the scripts and reduce dependence on native-American-specific regalia and culture and shift focus to something more neutral without losing the all allure and mystique that makes those ceremonies so cool. Sounds like some lodges went all western cowboy themed and it misses the mark.

I think there are ceremonial features that are more neutral than we realize, and they didn't have to get removed. There isn't anything uniquely native-American about shooting a flaming arrow into a lake or painting your face. Obviously things like putting on a headdress or wearing something that is very specific to a particular tribe or region are more problematic. But I feel like we scrapped everything when we didn't have to.

Scouts like OA ceremonies because they are different. Kids aren't sitting there thinking, "Wow, that was an incredibly authentic hoop dance and the beaded belt that scout wore was beautifully detailed." They like the ceremonies because they are different, they are seeing stuff that is unique not just in scouting but in general. Most couldn't tell you if the costuming was authentic or completely uninspired by any specific tribe at all.

Ceremonies can still be interesting and inspiring without the cringe. It just will take some more work to get there. If a lodge is just going to phone it in and go with an easy cowboy theme, stripped entirely of what made previous OA ceremonies cool, then I'm not surprised that the scouts aren't enjoying them anymore.

[InquisitiveScouter]

5 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

the dirtier and grungier the sash is

LOL, how true...  I was once approached by a professional and he remarked that I should get a new sash because mine (Vigil) was looking quite used.  I said, "No , thanks.  I love my sash the way it is, and it has great sentimental value to me.  Actually, you might consider that yours is too clean."  👹

[MikeS72]

4 hours ago, FireStone said:

There isn't anything uniquely native-American about shooting a flaming arrow into a lake or painting your face.

As long as there is a lake for that flaming arrow to be extinguished in that can still be impressive, and I was the person shooting that arrow on several occasions (might not quite jib with the Outdoor Code or Leave No Trace though 😇).

As for the face painting, I remember ceremonies in the 60's where the was not only face paint used but the team went through a couple of gallons of red body paint to mimic native coloration.  Looking back now, I cannot believe we thought that was ok.  One of the primary reasons we stopped using face paint was that a lot of it was copied from what those ceremonialists saw in pictures.  The problem with that was that may of those pictures depicted designs that were religious in nature; I am greatful that we no longer do that.

[Oldscout448]

Personally  I think it's a shame we scrapped the face paint.  We did a fair bit of research and study to insure that the patterns  we used didn't resemble  anything religious or tribe specific.   But  I do understand that every Lodge may not have  been so conscientious.  I hoped that perhaps national would come up with some pre-approved , non offending templates that we could all use, but no dice.

I too have shot the flaming arrow.  

Edited July 14, 2022 by Oldscout448

[jscouter1]

This post doesn't really ask any questions but is more of an update (feel free to leave any advice)

 

Im back. Hey guys most of you probably remember me as the kid who could not join the OA whatsoever. Last in this adventure, I was fresh out of options and pretty sure this was the end of it for me. But then I went to NYLT (first scout in my troops 75 years to do so). On top of the awesome times I had at NYLT and the valuable leadership skills I did bring a few things back. One of the first was actually getting to talk my OA troubles out in person with my TG who is a Brotherhood member. He did bring up some new ideas that I cant believe I hadn't thought of. Joining a Venturing Crew!!! How did I not consider this as an option. So as soon as I got back to my home council I used to unit locator to try and find a venturing crew near me. To my utter surprise I could not find an active crew in my area, now this may sound normal to some, but I live in LA and with 7,000,000 people you would think that someone would have started a crew. Sooooooo I seem to be back where I started. Thanks for reading, I will probably provide another update like this following my troop going to Camp ManyPoint in Minnesota.

[FireStone]

14 hours ago, MikeS72 said:

As long as there is a lake for that flaming arrow to be extinguished in that can still be impressive, and I was the person shooting that arrow on several occasions (might not quite jib with the Outdoor Code or Leave No Trace though 😇).

As for the face painting, I remember ceremonies in the 60's where the was not only face paint used but the team went through a couple of gallons of red body paint to mimic native coloration.  Looking back now, I cannot believe we thought that was ok.  One of the primary reasons we stopped using face paint was that a lot of it was copied from what those ceremonialists saw in pictures.  The problem with that was that may of those pictures depicted designs that were religious in nature; I am greatful that we no longer do that.

I think there's a big difference between "face paint" and "face paint that mimics specific tribal designs". And your example illustrates this as well. Face paint itself isn't inherently native american, but face paint intended to copy specific native american designs would be an issue. Obviously red body paint is problematic.

Likewise, arrows, hatchets, feathers aren't exclusive to native american culture, but a tomahawk is, or a feathered headdress.

My point is this: Are we going too far with stripping out anything even remotely native american from ceremonies, removing stuff that doesn't need to be removed and thereby taking out stuff that made these ceremonies more enjoyable? These things are native american only in the context of how they are used, not that the items themselves should be protected from appropriation. As others have mentioned, I just wonder if we gave some thought to how to use certain things in ceremonies in a non-culturally-appropriated way that we could then also retain some of the visual interest of the ceremonies.

[yknot]

9 hours ago, FireStone said:

I think there's a big difference between "face paint" and "face paint that mimics specific tribal designs". And your example illustrates this as well. Face paint itself isn't inherently native american, but face paint intended to copy specific native american designs would be an issue. Obviously red body paint is problematic.

Likewise, arrows, hatchets, feathers aren't exclusive to native american culture, but a tomahawk is, or a feathered headdress.

My point is this: Are we going too far with stripping out anything even remotely native american from ceremonies, removing stuff that doesn't need to be removed and thereby taking out stuff that made these ceremonies more enjoyable? These things are native american only in the context of how they are used, not that the items themselves should be protected from appropriation. As others have mentioned, I just wonder if we gave some thought to how to use certain things in ceremonies in a non-culturally-appropriated way that we could then also retain some of the visual interest of the ceremonies.

The only other nonethnic youth activity I know apart from scouts that incorporated something like face paint as a rite of passage was foxhunting. Young members of the Pack would get "blooded" the first time they managed to arrive at a kill with the rest of the field. Their faces were marked, sometimes with fox blood, sometimes with something more benign. However, modern day outlooks have changed and fox killing is viewed differently and blooding, or the simulation of blooding, has like many other dated practices pretty much faded away. It's hard to understand then why proponents are so determined to keep things like Native American inspired face painting in scouting, particularly OA, when it has nothing to do with what youth actually do in scouts. Scouting is patch, badge, pin,  sash, flag, and ribbon mad: There must be some impressive regalia unique to scouts and OA, and in keeping with the organization's own insignia traditions, that could be created to replace using symbols of Native American culture like paint or feathers. In the present day, putting war paint on scouts seems as odd and out of the mainstream as putting fake fox blood on young riders.