Unit refuses to hold elections

[Oldscout448]

On 5/18/2022 at 9:05 PM, jscouter1 said:

Hello, some of you may now know me as the kid who really wants to join the OA. Well I am here to tell you guys that my journey has come to a sad end. I have tried all chances to join but none of them have turned out. My SM denied an election, surrounding troops wouldnt do dual enrollment, and even the lodge in the council neighboring has "ghosted' me. So I wish you all the best of luck with your journeys and you are truly all lucky to be involved in such a great organization and brotherhood.

- A friend in scouting, 

Truly sorry to read that.  If by any chance you end up in upper Maryland,  give me a shout.  We have a good sized law enforcement Explorer Post and some very pro OA advisors and SMs.  You sound like the kind of guy who would fit right in. Please don't let this decision  by a foolish SM sour the rest of your scouting journey.  OA is just a part of it.  

Hope to see you on the trail sometime, somewhere,

Oldscout 

[clivusmultrum]

I am just back from my third summer camp as an adult. I was a Scout in the 1970’s.  So I am constantly trying to reconcile memory with current observation. The first summer camp that I participated in as an adult we had one Scout called out for OA. I believe that was the last OA election the Troop had. The fellow that was chosen declined the honor.

. The next years no elections.  I watched our Scouts during the OA ceremony at summer camp and I was pretty sure there would be no interest in OA nominations going forward. Dutifully eavesdropping after the ceremony this year, I heard a couple of Scouts call the proceedings “cringy”. The crazy script, 1950’s western movie delivery with the mismatched costuming, I totally understand why these kids found it off putting. It seems more Mardi Gras than honor society.

We have a number of adults serving in our troop who were in OA as youth. Our most recent SM is in OA. My father was in OA as an adult. None of us are discouraging participation but kids are different than when I was a kid. They aren’t buying this package. We aren’t pressing. Maybe it is time to reevaluate the presentation.

 

[fred8033]

1 hour ago, clivusmultrum said:

...I heard a couple of Scouts call the proceedings “cringy”. The crazy script, 1950’s western movie delivery with the mismatched costuming, I totally understand why these kids found it off putting. It seems more Mardi Gras than honor society.  ... None of us are discouraging participation but kids are different than when I was a kid. They aren’t buying this package. ...

Hugely agree.  When my dad was a kid, they played cowboys and indians.  Gabby Hayes and John Wayne were in the theaters.  My friends and I played Hogans Heroes as kids.  We watched re-runs of Gilligans Island.  This generation has been online their whole lives playing Minecraft and drowning in politically correct messages.

The OA scripts are old and out of place.  Much of the script can be salvaged. ... Time for something simple and authentic. 

[SiouxRanger]

We've had a few folks post that their SM refused to allow OA elections.  I always thought it was the duty of the SM and assistant scout masters to make program opportunities available which comport with the program, the OA being among them.

If the scouts decide not to participate, so be it, but at least they self-select not to participate.

We've had the scouts decide not to attend district camporees, mainly because the theme was the same, year to year-cooking-sponsored by a unit which essentially had to fund the materials themselves and did so marginally.  It was all lecture-scouts simply watched and did not get to participate.  That played out for about 6 years. Our troop only attended the first year.

We haven't had resistance to participating in OA, but I can see how the ceremony may not engage the imaginations of modern scouts.

I do not know how uniform the OA ceremonies are from Lodge to Lodge. Some may be more engaging than others.

In my several year NCAP team involvement, I've seen great variability in the quality of facilities, equipment, and supplies.  Probably largely the result of budgetary constraints.

It is a tough business putting on a respectable summer camp program.  Only a strong cadre of returning staff make it work.

 

[yknot]

16 hours ago, clivusmultrum said:

... I watched our Scouts during the OA ceremony at summer camp and I was pretty sure there would be no interest in OA nominations going forward. Dutifully eavesdropping after the ceremony this year, I heard a couple of Scouts call the proceedings “cringy”. The crazy script, 1950’s western movie delivery with the mismatched costuming, I totally understand why these kids found it off putting. It seems more Mardi Gras than honor society.

We have a number of adults serving in our troop who were in OA as youth. Our most recent SM is in OA. My father was in OA as an adult. None of us are discouraging participation but kids are different than when I was a kid. They aren’t buying this package. We aren’t pressing. Maybe it is time to reevaluate the presentation.

 

It is adults who drive most of this and the negative connotations are perhaps most extreme in OA but not unique. There are also those adults who get up in front of other adults and youth and sing the Back to Gilwell song, or others who insist on singing some of the traditional camp fire songs or skits that are also more for the 1950s. I have seen this chase prospective or new scouts and families out the door. I think BSA needs to reevaluate how it is presenting itself overall, not just in OA. 

[clivusmultrum]

For all the good the organization has done in fostering my interest in First Nations it baffles me that they can’t come up with an approach that honors their contribution and incorporates their interests. I suppose we could ask. Maybe we are afraid of receiving a Cease and Desist.

[HashTagScouts]

1 hour ago, clivusmultrum said:

For all the good the organization has done in fostering my interest in First Nations it baffles me that they can’t come up with an approach that honors their contribution and incorporates their interests. I suppose we could ask. Maybe we are afraid of receiving a Cease and Desist.

There is no official Call-out ceremony script produced by the OA. That is Lodge specific if it is being done. Not all Lodges do call-out at summer camp- honestly, it is not at all the majority that do. The "unit election" period is also set by the individual Lodge. I've seen quite a few Lodges outside of the Northeast that run their Lodge on a calendar year basis (new officers start in January, elections occur January-March, induction weekends in April and fall). 

As to regalia, each Lodge is supposed to get approval from the Native American tribes in the Council locality, and if they don't approve, the Lodge is supposed to cease using regalia. There was never an official pack-to-troop crossover script, but after years of complaints, the OA had to step in and create one (the text of which has absolutely nothing to do with OA or Native Americans) for National. Regalia cannot be worn by OA members participating in those. I'm an Associate Lodge Adviser, and I can tell you we get complaints every year from parents who were in attendance at Blue & Gold ceremonies where a crossover is done that involves regalia and Native American themes (put on by the pack/troop, so doesn't involve us), so it is not at all just Native Americans who are not thrilled by the appropriation. I'm also in part Native American, so I can speak on behalf of myself and say honoring is great, but involves obtaining knowledge, much of which you aren't going to pick up by osmosis. I welcome folks to get to really understand NA cultures, but learning about one tribe in PA doesn't really translate to knowing anything about a tribe in CA. And, there is really the rub for the OA. If we went to "keep it entirely local", then all of the current tradition and ceremony of the OA doesn't hold up unless you are local to the Lenni Lenape.  

[mrjohns2]

11 hours ago, HashTagScouts said:

Not all Lodges do call-out at summer camp- honestly, it is not at all the majority that do.

My perspective says all do, at least in my section. Maybe I don’t have a good national view. 

[Mrjeff]

This may be an issue for the Lodge Advisor.  If the Unit OA Representative program were used it would become apparent that the OA can help the Troop.  If a unit encouraged one adult as the OA Rep Advisor and one youth member to be the OA Rep a bridge between the unit and local lodge could be built that would allow both the unit and the lodge would be able to support one another.  I would suggest that the Lodge Advisor contact the unit leader and introduce this concept. 

[clivusmultrum]

On 7/8/2022 at 11:57 AM, HashTagScouts said:

There is no official Call-out ceremony script produced by the OA. That is Lodge specific if it is being done. Not all Lodges do call-out at summer camp- honestly, it is not at all the majority that do. The "unit election" period is also set by the individual Lodge. I've seen quite a few Lodges outside of the Northeast that run their Lodge on a calendar year basis (new officers start in January, elections occur January-March, induction weekends in April and fall). 

As to regalia, each Lodge is supposed to get approval from the Native American tribes in the Council locality, and if they don't approve, the Lodge is supposed to cease using regalia. There was never an official pack-to-troop crossover script, but after years of complaints, the OA had to step in and create one (the text of which has absolutely nothing to do with OA or Native Americans) for National. Regalia cannot be worn by OA members participating in those. I'm an Associate Lodge Adviser, and I can tell you we get complaints every year from parents who were in attendance at Blue & Gold ceremonies where a crossover is done that involves regalia and Native American themes (put on by the pack/troop, so doesn't involve us), so it is not at all just Native Americans who are not thrilled by the appropriation. I'm also in part Native American, so I can speak on behalf of myself and say honoring is great, but involves obtaining knowledge, much of which you aren't going to pick up by osmosis. I welcome folks to get to really understand NA cultures, but learning about one tribe in PA doesn't really translate to knowing anything about a tribe in CA. And, there is really the rub for the OA. If we went to "keep it entirely local", then all of the current tradition and ceremony of the OA doesn't hold up unless you are local to the Lenni Lenape.  

As to regalia, each Lodge is supposed to get approval from the Native American tribes in the Council locality, and if they don't approve, the Lodge is supposed to cease using regalia.

I am pretty sure that the Native American tribes in my area that were not eradicated were relocated to Oklahoma. Having no one to ask?

[MikeS72]

On 7/9/2022 at 12:28 AM, mrjohns2 said:

My perspective says all do, at least in my section. Maybe I don’t have a good national view. 

We do elections and call out in the fall, with our ordeal weekends in January.  Helps keep them alive during the ordeal by not doing it in the Florida summer heat.😁

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, clivusmultrum said:

I am pretty sure that the Native American tribes in my area that were not eradicated were relocated to Oklahoma. Having no one to ask?

I'm taking this as intended humor. So, as someone who has spent almost their entire 64 year life in Oklahoma, I will go ask one if you want. You can't sing a cat here without hitting someone with some Native American blood. Was there a specific tribe from your area.  My son-in-law is 1/32 Cherokee and went to a high school with the Indians as their mascot. That should do.

However, we did a lot of Native American theme ceremonies in our pack and my experience is that Native Americans are less concerned about details of the ceremonies than they are of respect toward their culture. Oh, there are activist of course, but that isn't the nom.

our pack had one dad who was Eskimo. I know, but he was hired by and oil company in Oklahoma. He was so excited about how our pack used the Native American theme that he volunteered to help in anyway he could. Songs, costumes, whatever. He felt so honored when I asked him to help me plan an awards ceremony. He chose to lead a dance that included all 200 attendees at the pack meeting. That was a long time ago, but my adult sons still talk about it. He told me one time that the Native American youth on average come from families of drugs and alcohol, so any celebration that shows respect and pride toward the Native American culture is welcome. Everyone of our Bobcats received a feather headband.

Barry

 

[MikeS72]

20 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

I'm taking this as intended humor. So, as someone who has spent almost their entire 64 year life in Oklahoma, I will go ask one if you want. You can't sing a cat here without hitting someone with some Native American blood. Was there a specific tribe from your area.  My son-in-law is 1/32 Cherokee and went to a high school with the Indians as their mascot. That should do.

However, we did a lot of Native American theme ceremonies in our pack and my experience is that Native Americans are less concerned about details of the ceremonies than they are of respect toward their culture. Oh, there are activist of course, but that isn't the nom.

our pack had one dad who was Eskimo. I know, but he was hired by and oil company in Oklahoma. He was so excited about how our pack used the Native American theme that he volunteered to help in anyway he could. Songs, costumes, whatever. He felt so honored when I asked him to help me plan an awards ceremony. He chose to lead a dance that included all 200 attendees at the pack meeting. That was a long time ago, but my adult sons still talk about it. He told me one time that the Native American youth on average come from families of drugs and alcohol, so any celebration that shows respect and pride toward the Native American culture is welcome. Everyone of our Bobcats received a feather headband.

Barry

 

I do not usually respond to your posts as I see them a coming from a perspective that is decades old and may not fit well in today's wold.  

That being said, there is just some much here that is wrong on many levels, particularly that next to last sentence Native American youth comes from a family of drugs and alcohol.  I feel for anyone who would make a comment like that, regardless of source.

[Eagledad]

12 minutes ago, MikeS72 said:

I do not usually respond to your posts as I see them a coming from a perspective that is decades old and may not fit well in today's wold.  

That being said, there is just some much here that is wrong on many levels, particularly that next to last sentence Native American youth comes from a family of drugs and alcohol.  I feel for anyone who would make a comment like that, regardless of source.

OK

Barry

[Eagle1993]

3 hours ago, clivusmultrum said:

As to regalia, each Lodge is supposed to get approval from the Native American tribes in the Council locality, and if they don't approve, the Lodge is supposed to cease using regalia.

I am pretty sure that the Native American tribes in my area that were not eradicated were relocated to Oklahoma. Having no one to ask?

The council call out I went to had no regalia.  Apparently a local tribe objected when asked.  They still put on a good ceremony. I personally liked what an older scouter said before we headed to the OA call out.  He emphasized cheerful service and that it was an honor to be elected to the OA.  That OA represents the best of scouting and those chosen for the honor should continue their cheerful service.  

OA seems to be in serious trouble and I question it's long term viability.  Our council OA meetings are an hour away.  Our council camp doesn't have a Scouts BSA program and is over an hour away.  Building a service organization that does anything more than 1-2 events a year is tough as council camps are sold off and councils merge, expanding OA lodges across wide expanses of the state.

Most of my scouts preferred OA call outs to not have regalia.  They seemed open to if if a tribe was partnered with the lodge ... but several compared prior (regalia based) OA callouts to minstrel shows.

First ... I think OA needs to figure out the 1 lodge/council situation.  When we go to 80 councils (or there abouts) post bankruptcy ... 1 lodge/council doesn't work.  I almost think we should have a lodge per district.

Second ... Perhaps OA isn't just or primarily dedicated to service of council camps.  That worked when councils have several camps, many of which within a short drive.  Council camps are being sold off left/right ... OA should broaden their service.

Third ... If there is a tribe that works closely with the lodge, great.  Otherwise, figure out a non NA version of ceremonies.  Don't just copy the NA version without regalia.  Use it as an opportunity to use scouting history ... referencing great scouts of the past.  Dress in full Class A uniforms.  I could imagine some impressive ceremonies that are based on scouting history.

Finally ... Make OA more visible during camporees and other council/district activities.  It seems like I only hear of OA during election & callouts.

Hopefully OA adjusts.  They are a great organization, but have a lot of headwinds.  We will see...