AOL Scouting Adventure - Scout Rank

[qwazse]

I’ll restate: WB isn’t for anyone at any time.

You have one advantage: you’ve read how much we don’t like when young adolescents are treated like children. You know that there’s a “Cub Scout Leader” switch, and that you have to tone it down. (FWIW, when I became a Crew Advisor, I needed to find the ASM switch and tone that down.) You were a Boy Scout, you can dig deep and remember what you got out of that program … what went well, what didn’t go so well, what you’d do differently.

Knowing this puts you a step ahead of lots of adults.

Being humble to your youth covers the remaining ground.

[FireStone]

On 6/6/2021 at 4:53 PM, Eagle94-A1 said:

THIS is why hate having advancement as the focus of the program instead of FUN AND ADVENTURE!

I think there is supposed to be a balance, to mix the fun/adventure with the advancement program. The kids show up for both. They want adventure but they also want that next rank badge, and recognizing achievement is one of the key ingredients of the scouting method.

But how to strike that balance, what the right ratio is, I have no idea and I applaud anyone who can figure it out.

Likewise with the AOL part of this discussion, striking a similar balance between getting AOLs prepared to join a troop, giving them enough knowledge and skill to confidently enter Troop life but not so much that they are over-prepared and then bored for the first year, I'm struggling with that very idea myself right now.

[DuctTape]

I am not sure I have ever seen new scouts bored their first year due to being overprepared. I have seen them bored due to being under prepared. 

[Eagle94-A1]

8 hours ago, FireStone said:

I think there is supposed to be a balance, to mix the fun/adventure with the advancement program. The kids show up for both. They want adventure but they also want that next rank badge, and recognizing achievement is one of the key ingredients of the scouting method.

But how to strike that balance, what the right ratio is, I have no idea and I applaud anyone who can figure it out.

Likewise with the AOL part of this discussion, striking a similar balance between getting AOLs prepared to join a troop, giving them enough knowledge and skill to confidently enter Troop life but not so much that they are over-prepared and then bored for the first year, I'm struggling with that very idea myself right now.

I am old school, the PLC's planning should provide OPPORTUNITIES ( emphasis) for advancement, but focus on it. And "Advancement should come as naturally as a suntan, it just happens in the outdoors." as Lord Baden-Powell said.

As for OPERATION FIRST CLASS, which is now FIRST CLASS, FIRST YEAR ( both sic), if you can find the research on why that came about in August 1989, you will find 2 things wrong with the methodology. First and foremost there is no information, studies, stats, etc on how ACTIVE (emphasis) units are and how the activity level of the troop affects retention. The second concern, which did not hit me until years later after talking to folks, was LDS influence. SInce the LDS Church modified the BSA program to suit their needs and they were the largest CO at the time of the 1980s study on retention. Let's face it when you keep the 11 year olds away from the rest of the troop, and have a Cub Scout program focused on getting First Class in a Year, it will affect the stats. Also Since all male LDS youth were registered, even if they were no longer active, that also affected retention numbers.

Regarding this statement,

2 hours ago, DuctTape said:

I am not sure I have ever seen new scouts bored their first year due to being overprepared. I have seen them bored due to being under prepared. 

The only time I have seen overprepared First Year Scouts bored is at the Summer Camp First Year Camp Program. In both cases, they were helping their patrols out with learning the material. If you focus on fun and adventure, they won't be bored. I have seen underprepared have challenges, but still have fun.

What concerns me are the non-prepared Cross Overs. Over the years I have seen two groups of Cross Overs who were not prepared, essentially being given their AOL. They and their parents struggled with the differences between the 2 program. In one case we lost 33% of the Cross Overs before the end of their first year, and 66% before the end of their second year because they were not ready. In the other case, we lost 70% within in a year and 90% within 2 years.

[mrjohns2]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

The only time I have seen overprepared First Year Scouts bored is at the Summer Camp First Year Camp Program. In both cases, they were helping their patrols out with learning the material. If you focus on fun and adventure, they won't be bored. I have seen underprepared have challenges, but still have fun.

This is why my feelings are still mixed on Summer Camp First Year Programs. It is very unnatural vs. a year of campouts and most items will be done. There might be some minor requirements to cover, but for the most part, nearly all would be covered in a good program. 

[FireStone]

1 hour ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

I am old school, the PLC's planning should provide OPPORTUNITIES ( emphasis) for advancement, but focus on it. And "Advancement should come as naturally as a suntan, it just happens in the outdoors." as Lord Baden-Powell said.

I don't think that is entirely compatible with the modern BSA program. When BP said that, scouting had a handful of badges, all of which were hands-on-learning/doing based, most in the outdoors. Not a lot of organic opportunities in the outdoors to earn Citizenship badges and rank reqs, Family Life, Personal Management, service projects, etc.

For better or worse, the program has evolved into something where advancement opportunities sometimes have to be created, either by the unit, patrol, or by the scouts individually.

[InquisitiveScouter]

12 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

This is why my feelings are still mixed on Summer Camp First Year Programs. It is very unnatural vs. a year of campouts and most items will be done. There might be some minor requirements to cover, but for the most part, nearly all would be covered in a good program. 

I have recommended that we never do a "First Year Program" at Scout Camp again...based on my last five years of observations at different summer camps in our region.  Here are some things I have noted, in general...

- Most "instructors" for the programs were first year staffers without the requisite skills to teach.  I observed many of them demonstrating incorrect knots and lashings, incorrect safety precautions for Totin Chip (or outright skipping items like ax use and care, yet still "signing it off"), poor map and navigation skills, inability to identify local plants/trees (ID'ing animals is usually less of a problem, but still concerning, as many do not include insects/arachnids/mollusks/etc. in their scope), inadequate fire building, poor first aid skills, inadequate cooking/cleaning information, etc., etc. etc.  We have had to spend a good deal of time "correcting" learning wrong information. "What does the Scout Handbook say??" 

- Many programs simply escort the Scouts around to various program areas to earn MBs anyway, to fill the time.  Swimming, First Aid, Nature, a handicraft badge, etc.  They can do that themselves, thanks

- Poor/inaccurate recording of attendance and requirements accomplished.  Usually giving the Scout credit for items when they weren't even in class.

-  Dividing up the Scouts to form ad hoc patrols, rather than maintaining the patrol integrity provided by the unit.  If I give you 8 Scouts in the first year program, why don't you just keep them together in the patrol already formed with an identity, emblem, yell, etc.???  Answer: because this is part of our program schedule.  If they already have those things done, we don't have anything else for them to do during that block if instruction. Me:  😈 (I think this also contributes somewhat to homesickness issues, as they are not with the buddies they came to camp with.)

- Feedback from 95% of the participants is negative...they did not have fun in those programs

- The trend to be always "busy doing something"  Scouts need some time to go for hike, read a book, sit in a hammock, skip rocks in the creek, fish, etc...  When they do the MB program, we encourage them to take an hour or two off every day to do "nothing".  Every bit of research I have read says youth need unstructured time for development.

Our PLC, all of whom were in those programs, now encourage our new Scouts to not go into those programs.  Our adult leaders, many of them parents of Scouts who went through those programs, discourage parents from steering their new Scout to those programs also.

It is rare that a Scout finishes First Class in a year, because they have to take the initiative on their own advancement, particularly with the fitness activity tracking pieces.  Most 11 year olds don't care about some of those things.  We provide OPPORTUNITY to advance to First Class.  We do not spoon feed them, nor create paper Scouts.

[Eagle94-A1]

32 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

This is why my feelings are still mixed on Summer Camp First Year Programs. 

Same here. I know back in the day, when Cub Scouts was a 3 year program and Webelos Crossed over in May/June, the First Year Camper Program was a major help, not only with advancement, but also with getting new Scouts acclimated to Scouting. My buddies who went to summer camp their first year had a tremendous jumpstart on me who was unable to go.

I think there is a place for the program, even with Webelos being an 18-24 month transition program. As I mentioned above, I have seen well prepared Cross Overs, underprepared Cross Overs, and unprepared Cross Overs. I use to think it was based upon packs, but really it is their Webelos Den Leader and also situation. One of the WDL who did an outstanding job preparing his first Webelos den for Scouts BSA admitted he did not do everything to prepare his second den for Scouts BSA because Covid seriously inhibited his plans.  And the pack that has a history of unprepared Cross Overs actually had a good batch this last go around because they had an outstanding WDL.

So I can see some New Scouts needing a First Year Camper Program to get the stuff they should have learned as Webelos.

[InquisitiveScouter]

1 minute ago, FireStone said:

Not a lot of organic opportunities in the outdoors to earn Citizenship badges and rank reqs, Family Life, Personal Management, service projects, etc.

Granted, but those aren't requirements up to First Class...  service projects, yes, and all units should be providing program opportunity for those.

[Eagle94-A1]

4 minutes ago, FireStone said:

I don't think that is entirely compatible with the modern BSA program. When BP said that, scouting had a handful of badges, all of which were hands-on-learning/doing based, most in the outdoors.

I think the focus is on new Scouts, Scout Rank as well as  Tenderfoot through First Class. Merit badges traditionally have been for higher ranks, although they can work on them at any time. Tenderfoot through First Class focuses on the outdoors.

6 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Not a lot of organic opportunities in the outdoors to earn Citizenship badges and rank reqs, Family Life, Personal Management, service projects, etc.

You are correct that some badges do not have organic opportunities. Sometimes the PLC does need to think outside the box. For example, hiking one of the Washington DC trails for Cit Nation. Service Projects can also be outdoors.

6 minutes ago, FireStone said:

For better or worse, the program has evolved into something where advancement opportunities sometimes have to be created, either by the unit, patrol, or by the scouts individually.

Agree, but the key is WHO IS DOING THE PLANNING (emphasis)? If the Scouts are doing the planning, great. But if adults are imposing it, you will lose Scouts. I have seen that time and time again.

One key thing that you touch on. Advancement IS individual. Again our job is to provide opportunities, and that does include helping Scouts find things outside of the normal troop program. If an individual Scout wants to create his own advancement opportunity, that is not only allowed but has been the way since 1910.

[mrjohns2]

20 minutes ago, FireStone said:

Not a lot of organic opportunities in the outdoors to earn Citizenship badges and rank reqs, Family Life, Personal Management, service projects, etc.

That is where a Scout and buddy call up a MBC. A lot of the items you list, except for service projects, are a challenge many Scouts aren’t interested in. “Challenge by Choice” is what should drive completion of many of these MBs. 

[Rock Doc]

On 6/6/2021 at 2:40 PM, yknot said:

This is something I had trouble with with my last AOL den. They were very well prepared for cross over.  The Troop though went through Scout very laboriously with a couple of fun exceptions. Then, all cross overs had to sign up for a Dan Beard program at summer camp, which the kids started calling Dan Bored, and did a lot of the same stuff all over again. The Troop lost about a third of the boys that first fall because they were bored stinkless. I think it's important to honor the progression but also realize it can seem very repetitive and boring to 10 and 11 year old kids. People have talked about kids burning out on cubs and I think some of the repetitiveness, especially the last 18 months in cubs and the first year in troop, is one reason why. 

 

Does your troop have a strong youth-led ethos? My experience has been that given the opportunity a youth-led PLC will shy away from the proscriptive approach and generally try to keep things fun with a pinch of advancement thrown in - especially right after crossover

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, Rock Doc said:

Does your troop have a strong youth-led ethos? My experience has been that given the opportunity a youth-led PLC will shy away from the proscriptive approach and generally try to keep things fun with a pinch of advancement thrown in - especially right after crossover

THIS.IS.THE.WAY!

[yknot]

1 hour ago, Rock Doc said:

Does your troop have a strong youth-led ethos? My experience has been that given the opportunity a youth-led PLC will shy away from the proscriptive approach and generally try to keep things fun with a pinch of advancement thrown in - especially right after crossover

We do and we don't. The unit is advancement focused. It's youth led, but with adult expectations that the boys internalize.  The scouts prepare hard prior to crossover. Then there is a standard camp out or series of meetings in the spring post crossover where the material is gone over again before anyone will sign off on anything, so to their minds they've done it twice. Then in the past they've been told they must attend Dan Beard/First Year scouting at summer camp so they do it all a third time. Then, none of the SM/ASM team trusts camp sign offs, so they have to sometimes do it a fourth time if they weren't smart enough or motivated enough to get the sign offs in the spring. Lately, there's been some give on camp because of poor feedback and lost kids. This unit is kind of an Eagle mill. The SM is a great guy but he will not tolerate any sitting around at camp in a hammock or doing anything that doesn't serve advancement. The parents scream if kids don't come back from camp with four and five merit badges. I don't know whether it's because they were raised this way or not, but most of the boys are very focused on checking off every box they can and design most meetings around that. It's good for the very focused boys, but we lose a large percentage of those who are more chill. I should actually not say "we" because my younger son and I finally dropped out this year. He's more of a hike and what kind of bird is that kid. 

 

[Eagle94-A1]

@yknot

 

I AM SO SORRY ABOUT YOUR SITUATION!

I have encountered parents and units like that. And making the change to a more youth-led and fun unit is extremely challenging when you do not have support.

I am dealing with one grandmother right now who is just like that. She has custody of the grandson, and is forcing him to stay in Scouting and is pushing him very hard to be an Eagle. Nice kid, doesn't cause major problems thankfully, but it is very obvious he has no interest in Scouting. When it was time to turn in MB class schedules, he didn't have the paperwork, and had no idea what his grandmother signed him up for. He messaged her for the schedule, but between when he and I received it (she sent it to both of us and it was not the form we sent out so it made no sense anyway) We had him 1/2 way through picking the MBs he wanted to take. SHE WAS FURIOUS. Thankfully she got over it. This will be the first time she has not gone to a summer camp or winter camp to make sure he is taking the MBs she signed him up for.

And here is the funny thing. Before he had no interest whatsoever in summer camp. Now that he made his own choices, his interest has perked up some. I am hoping the week away from grandmother and having fun will change his outlook.

Forgot to add, in my experience, if you focus on fun and adventure, the Scouts stick around a lot longer. Advancement may be slower, but they tend to stick around even after making Eagle. Current troop has an 18 y.o. ASM and 17 Y.O. Eagle Scout who are having fun. Another troop had a group having so much fun, that they formed a Venture patrol and organized one final HA trip before they left for college. Two troops I was involved with had alumni stick around as ASMs and  attend functions and camp when they could. And one troop formed a Venturing Crew so they could have some fun outside of the troop.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Eagle94-A1