Baden-Powell Service Association is now Outdoor Service Guides

[CynicalScouter]

https://www.facebook.com/outdoorserviceguides/posts/3922488694502337

[qwazse]

Nice to know that someone in this country doesn’t take umbrage at being guides!

[InquisitiveScouter]

Wow, are they taking this step to distance themselves further from BSA?  BPSA marketed themselves as "traditional scouting"

They'll probably be changing their pages soon.

https://bpsa-us.org/

Edited May 29, 2021 by InquisitiveScouter

[InquisitiveScouter]

Ahhh...more cancel culture...B-P is bad now 🤪

[yknot]

14 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

Ahhh...more cancel culture...B-P is bad now 🤪

I don't know why they changed but outside of scouting BP has a problematic history that has nothing to do with cancel culture. Most scouters just know the official biographies about him. There has been a lot more published, some outright scurrilous, some serious research, that has to be taken as a part of the whole when considering him. For my part, I think he had some great insights into the minds of kids and how to engage them in constructive fun - an approach that I think works for girls as well as boys by the way - but he was by no means the paragon that the scouting world has set him up to be. I don't fault people for being a product of their time but he had some weird interests including a morbid fascination with executions. He was not a normal guy. 

. 

 

 

[CynicalScouter]

6 minutes ago, yknot said:

I don't know why they changed

They announced around a year ago why. They changed because of the association of Baden-Powell with colonialism and militarism.

https://bpsa-us.org/news/dear-scouts/

Quote

While we scout in method and manner outlined by Robert Baden-Powell, and he contributed undeniably to the worldwide scouting movement, his biography is complicated.  By retaining his name as ours, we associate too closely with his entire legacy, including his racism, imperialism, colonialism, sexism. 

 

Edited May 29, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[InquisitiveScouter]

10 minutes ago, yknot said:

I don't know why they changed but outside of scouting BP has a problematic history that has nothing to do with cancel culture. Most scouters just know the official biographies about him. There has been a lot more published, some outright scurrilous, some serious research, that has to be taken as a part of the whole when considering him. For my part, I think he had some great insights into the minds of kids and how to engage them in constructive fun - an approach that I think works for girls as well as boys by the way - but he was by no means the paragon that the scouting world has set him up to be. I don't fault people for being a product of their time but he had some weird interests including a morbid fascination with executions. He was not a normal guy. 

. 

 

 

There are no paragons (save one, but that's a religious discussion).  There is no "normal guy."  I'm sure, being human, you have as many deep flaws as I do...

It is still "cancel culture"

From the link @CynicalScouterprovided, "By retaining his name as ours, we associate too closely with his entire legacy, including his racism, imperialism, colonialism, sexism."

That's a lot of "...isms", and belies a deeper self-loathing associated with the "woke"

[yknot]

19 minutes ago, InquisitiveScouter said:

There are no paragons (save one, but that's a religious discussion).  There is no "normal guy."  I'm sure, being human, you have as many deep flaws as I do...

It is still "cancel culture"

From the link @CynicalScouterprovided, "By retaining his name as ours, we associate too closely with his entire legacy, including his racism, imperialism, colonialism, sexism."

That's a lot of "...isms", and belies a deeper self-loathing associated with the "woke"

OK well that's their reasoning, but that wasn't what I was referring to. I don't want to get into a further negative discussion about BP on a scouting web site, but there is an awful lot out there to read about him that has nothing to do with isms. He came up with a great kid program but he was a very strange guy. If you don't want to hear it, leave it there. If you are interested, there are a number of books out there beyond what was published through official channels. I got interested in this because I wanted to develop some historical perspectives in how scouting got where it is now so I went back to the beginning. There is a good book by Tim Jeal that is fair in how it recounts his talents and his flaws. 

[RememberSchiff]

Their Spring 2021 newsletter gave a Re-naming update. BP distancing is listed at "4) The name does not bring to mind specific historical individuals or stereotypes."

https://spark.adobe.com/page/TWCCoK2W1xZQj/#renaming-and-spring-headquarters-rendezvous

 

 

 

[FireStone]

They make a fair point about the name, they could change the name but still reference BP in their history and founding principles, which I hope they will do much like the BSA does. Although i kind of doubt that will actually happen.

Weird that they kept the fleur-de-lis logo, which BP was responsible for in scouting. If they are so anti-BP now, the logo should have changed, too.

The organization kind of seems to always be in a bit of an identity crisis. They were a mostly adult organization for a while, then became a more inclusive youth alternative to the BSA, a feature that they still cling to today even though it's not really much of a distinguishing factor anymore.

I don't think their name was ever the problem. They want to be a BSA alternative but they don't focus on what makes them a compelling alternative today, which would be their more traditional back-to-basics scouting program. They call themselves "scouting for all", but they don't offer a much more inclusive program than anyone else, except on the subject of a faith requirement.

The name change doesn't improve things for them, in my opinion. They say the name has something to do with their inclusiveness, but I don't get it. Doesn't sound like a youth-focused name, either.

[Muttsy]

On 5/29/2021 at 12:08 PM, CynicalScouter said:

They announced around a year ago why. They changed because of the association of Baden-Powell with colonialism and militarism.

https://bpsa-us.org/news/dear-scouts/

 

The BP issue is not cancel culture but the need to examine the man’s actual history. It’s hard to do because of the passage of time and the lack of original source materials. This book presents an extremely disturbing picture of BP. Whatever the truth, his excessively and perhaps unjustified glorification, is a public relations problem today. 
 

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/12235500/4-elevated-paedophiles-greg-hallett-and-spymaster

[Eagle94-A1]

1 hour ago, Muttsy said:

The BP issue is not cancel culture but the need to examine the man’s actual history. It’s hard to do because of the passage of time and the lack of original source materials. This book presents an extremely disturbing picture of BP. Whatever the truth, his excessively and perhaps unjustified glorification, is a public relations problem today. 
 

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/12235500/4-elevated-paedophiles-greg-hallett-and-spymaster

With all due respect, don't believe the work. 1) Greg Hallett really does not have any research credentials. 2. There are no references, citations or works cited in the chapter you cite. Where is he getting this information? IF as his bio states, he got these from interviews with KGB  operatives, there would still be citations for these interviews, and even copies of the KGB records. After the fall of the Soviet Union, I have been told by well respected historians and researchers that for the right amount of cash you could get any KGB record you wanted.  3) FNZ Publishing appears to be a defunct, New Zealand self publishing company. Anyone willing to pay for the production costs can get their book printed. In fact one discredited historian self published his book that was proven to be a complete work of fiction with made up data.

As a historian and librarian, I have serious questions about the work in question.