Unit mandate vaccine

[mncaa]

Has anyone's unit require their leaders to be vaccinated before attending in-person event? Not from Council, not from CO, but mandate by the troop. My unit is trying to put it into policy which some feel should be a personal choice if and when the adult decides to get the vaccine.

(I hope I put this in the right category. )

[qwazse]

No. But to be clear ... I am very much in favor of the mRNA vaccines, but that’s only because acquiring immunity to SARS-Cov-2 naturally comes with a 10-20x higher risk of death and disability. The shots are not fun. Neither is going to pay last respects to your neighbor. So, if someone has to take a pass on the shot, I encourage them to find 4 out of every 5 folks around them to get it on their behalf.

In general however, vaccine mandates don’t sit well with Americans. Historically we have had more success on a national level by giving folks the information they need and time to process it. That is why you have not and will not see a mandate from Council or your CO.
The unit committee however is facing youth and depending on the situation in which those youth live, they have a concern about transmission among unvaccinated and potentially from unvaccinated to vaccinated. We now know that he vaccine slows transmission.  So, if a higher portion of folks are immunized we could see 50 to 100x reduction in the risk of disease, disability, and death. 

So, I could see why a unit my put something of the sort in place. One would still have a personal choice of participating in another unit.

Edited May 22, 2021 by qwazse

[Eagle1993]

Not at the unit level.  Our schools are discussing if they treat it like the measles vaccine (required) or flu (optional).  

My town is now at 91% first shot vaccination complete for 16 year olds and older and our Covid rate is 2 active cases out of 14,000 residents. So it works well, but I doubt we would have a mandate as everyone is pretty much getting it on their own.  

You could require masks for those unvaccinated when they are indoors (per CDC) but I wouldn’t require the vaccine. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Eagle1993
Typo

[69RoadRunner]

2 hours ago, qwazse said:

In general however, vaccine mandates don’t sit well with Americans. Historically we have had more success on a national level by giving folks the information they need and time to process it. That is why you have not and will not see a mandate from Council or your CO.

I disagree about vaccine mandates not sitting well with Americans. For most of my life, people were very supportive and there was very little resistance.

That changed with the discredited anti-vaxxer movement that claimed vaccines caused Autism. This is completely debunked, but there is still a movement that believes this and any other crazy thing they hear about vaccines.

The vaccines work amazingly well. Get vaccinated and go back to normal life. For most of the pandemic, Covid was much deadlier than the Flu for adults. For children 12 and under, it was a little less deadly than the flu, thankfully. Now with many getting vaccinated, it will be far lower.

People who don't get vaccinated have chosen their level of risk. That's on them. If you're vaccinated, you don't need to be concerned about them.

Remember, unless you have an N95 mask, the mask provides no protection to the wearer. It provides a little protection to others from the wearer. Outside, there is no need for a mask for anyone.

A very small percentage of fully vaccinated people will test positive for Covid. The percentage of fully vaccinated people who have a serious reaction to Covid is microscopic.

[yknot]

1 hour ago, 69RoadRunner said:

I disagree about vaccine mandates not sitting well with Americans. For most of my life, people were very supportive and there was very little resistance.

That changed with the discredited anti-vaxxer movement that claimed vaccines caused Autism. This is completely debunked, but there is still a movement that believes this and any other crazy thing they hear about vaccines.

The vaccines work amazingly well. Get vaccinated and go back to normal life. For most of the pandemic, Covid was much deadlier than the Flu for adults. For children 12 and under, it was a little less deadly than the flu, thankfully. Now with many getting vaccinated, it will be far lower.

People who don't get vaccinated have chosen their level of risk. That's on them. If you're vaccinated, you don't need to be concerned about them.

Remember, unless you have an N95 mask, the mask provides no protection to the wearer. It provides a little protection to others from the wearer. Outside, there is no need for a mask for anyone.

A very small percentage of fully vaccinated people will test positive for Covid. The percentage of fully vaccinated people who have a serious reaction to Covid is microscopic.

I was about to click thumbs up on your post until I got to your comment about masks. That point is disputed. This is anecdotal, but I regularly monitor several high school district Covid dashboards as part of doing a regional Covid update. There have been multiple outbreaks among high school sports teams.  There were several outbreaks in fall sports on teams that were practicing solely outdoors but had some degree of close contact, e.g., football. Keep in mind, no one is using the locker rooms this is just kids on a field and masked until it's time to run. When the winter season started and masks came off for indoor basketball and hockey, there were more outbreaks. The schools did not see much transmission among masked children sitting six feet apart in classrooms, even during winter months. This indicates there may be some value to mask wearing. 

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by yknot

[69RoadRunner]

1 hour ago, yknot said:

I was about to click thumbs up on your post until I got to your comment about masks. That point is disputed. This is anecdotal, but I regularly monitor several high school district Covid dashboards as part of doing a regional Covid update. There have been multiple outbreaks among high school sports teams.  There were several outbreaks in fall sports on teams that were practicing solely outdoors but had some degree of close contact, e.g., football. Keep in mind, no one is using the locker rooms this is just kids on a field and masked until it's time to run. When the winter season started and masks came off for indoor basketball and hockey, there were more outbreaks. The schools did not see much transmission among masked children sitting six feet apart in classrooms, even during winter months. This indicates there may be some value to mask wearing. 

 

If everyone was wearing masks, then the protection was the Covid positive people not transmitting to the others. The people wearing the masks did not receive protection from their masks but from the others wearing masks.

Only N95 masks protect the wearer.

[SSScout]

Speak to Messrs. Sabin, Salk, Ehrlich and Pasteur...

 

[yknot]

44 minutes ago, 69RoadRunner said:

If everyone was wearing masks, then the protection was the Covid positive people not transmitting to the others. The people wearing the masks did not receive protection from their masks but from the others wearing masks.

Only N95 masks protect the wearer.

Only N95 masks provide near total protection to the wearer but other masks depending on type provide some protection to the wearer ranging from 10% to 70%.  Significant enough to help cut down on transmission and infection, especially when the ambient viral load is decreased by others also wearing masks. 

Edited May 22, 2021 by yknot

[mashmaster]

I don't think they can do a vaccine mandate.  They could do a mandate that in order to be unmasked you have to be vaccinated but I don't think you are legally allowed to ask that question.  I am not sure how HIPA rules work for this.   So I think you can say this is the rule and people should be respectful to follow it, but you can't enforce it.

[yknot]

44 minutes ago, mashmaster said:

I don't think they can do a vaccine mandate.  They could do a mandate that in order to be unmasked you have to be vaccinated but I don't think you are legally allowed to ask that question.  I am not sure how HIPA rules work for this.   So I think you can say this is the rule and people should be respectful to follow it, but you can't enforce it.

It depends on who is asking. HIPAA only applies in the healthcare setting and it merely protects against providers sharing your medical records against your will. An employer, school, business, or anyone who isn't affiliated with those entities can legally ask your vaccine status. They as of now can't mandate it, but they can make decisions based on whatever information you supply on whether or not they want to hire, serve, or admit you. In other threads it has been discussed that while BSA may not require a vaccine for scouting participation, a CO certainly can based on what they think their liability risks or even just unique levels of concern are. 

 

[fred8033]

Pairing back my comments.   My apologies if I write too explicitly.   This smells of the over-zealous using their scouting position over others to force a medical choice and medical tracking.  It's wrong.

Edited May 23, 2021 by fred8033

[yknot]

4 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

My apologies if I write too explicitly. 

This smells of the over-zealous using their scouting position over others to force a medical choice and medical tracking.  It's arrogant and wrong.  Period.  It's wrong.  We are already deciding this at at the national and state level ... we're deciding at schools too.

I support vaccines.  All my kids are vaccinated.  My wife is.  So am I.  I trust in the science.  ... Trusting in science is different than inserting myself into public policy.  Using your position as a scout leader to force something like this is wrong too.  

I'll reverse my view IF the troop leaders and scouts isolate themselves for years to come.  Avoid school.  Avoid shopping.  Avoid friends.  Ask for proof of vaccination before socializing.  Require scouts and kids friends to provide lists of kids they will socialize with and then get medical records first.  

I really question why the unit leaders pursuing this?  Why?  I really don't understand that.  This smells of someone being over zealous.   If government and schools are not forcing it, why are they? 

Also ... I might support this ... if your charter org turns away people that are not vaccinated.  Most are churches?  Is vaccination a denial point for communion?

 

I don't know what you're reacting to but I haven't seen much specific to scouting other than some COs that are hyper concerned about liability who may require it, at least of their adult leaders. I know some summer camps have required all staff to be vaccinated this summer. Have not seen anything yet about kids. This is just something we're all going to have to navigate in various settings from work to travel to schools and other activities as we (hopefully) head out of the pandemic. Just as I think anyone has a right to be vaccinated or not, I also think individual entities whether businesses or churches or community groups have a right to decide what they want to do based on their own business plans and liability concerns. Most of the universities in my state have already declared that all students and staff have to be vaccinated by fall. Some people are not happy but they've been told they can attend remote. Nothing has been said at the K-12 level, but then those age groups engage in less high risk behavior. If vaccination does become mandatory for school attendance at least for the 12-17 age group then the discussion for scouting will kind of become moot. 

[fred8033]

Fair enough.  I overreacted.  Please attribute it to a long day and too many hours between relatives with strongly different political positions.   I'm extremely frustrated that we have no middle ground anymore.  I was discussing this with my son on the way home.  We've lost the ability to keep our emotions out of current events.  Me too.  

For me, I cringe hearing this sort of thing.  I believe in vaccines, but then I've got the relatives mocking those who don't trust all vaccines and intentionally demeaning them with anti-vaxxer.  Devaluing their thoughts and person.  It hurts hearing one group mock the other.  It gets my dandruff up to defend those protesting.  It's hard to be a friend to all when people who's position I agree then mock the other group.  My national reaction is to defend those who have been demeaned.  

So again, my apologies.  It hit a sensitive point. 

Edited May 23, 2021 by fred8033

[yknot]

14 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Fair enough.  I overreacted.  Please attribute it to a long day and too many hours between relatives with strongly different political positions.   I'm extremely frustrated that we have no middle ground anymore.  I was discussing this with my son on the way home.  We've lost the ability to keep our emotions out of current events.  Me too.  

For me, I cringe hearing this sort of thing.  I believe in vaccines, but then I've got the relatives mocking those who don't trust all vaccines and intentionally demeaning them with anti-vaxxer.  Devaluing their thoughts and person.  It hurts hearing one group mock the other.  It gets my dandruff up to defend those protesting.  It's hard to be a friend to all when people who's position I agree then mock the other group.  My national reaction is to defend those who have been demeaned.  

So again, my apologies.  It hit a sensitive point. 

I didn't take it personally at all -- no apologies necessary. I share what you are feeling. We are all so activated by current events, even the more more level headed among us. It is a struggle to discuss things and not instantly snap into reactive mode. I'm churned up every day despite not wanting to be and trying very hard to hit the pause and edit buttons. 

 

[yknot]

25 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Fair enough.  I overreacted.  Please attribute it to a long day and too many hours between relatives with strongly different political positions.   I'm extremely frustrated that we have no middle ground anymore.  I was discussing this with my son on the way home.  We've lost the ability to keep our emotions out of current events.  Me too.  

For me, I cringe hearing this sort of thing.  I believe in vaccines, but then I've got the relatives mocking those who don't trust all vaccines and intentionally demeaning them with anti-vaxxer.  Devaluing their thoughts and person.  It hurts hearing one group mock the other.  It gets my dandruff up to defend those protesting.  It's hard to be a friend to all when people who's position I agree then mock the other group.  My national reaction is to defend those who have been demeaned.  

So again, my apologies.  It hit a sensitive point. 

And boy. Those relatives.