BSA vs Other Programs/Society - Youth Protection Comparison

[qwazse]

31 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

... This bankruptcy is about scout leaders turning a blind eye, focusing MORE on protecting their precious BSA and its reputation than actually doing something. And thanks to the release of the IV files we can see it: BSA leaders from National all the way down, IN WRITING, attempting to coverup or cover over THOUSANDS of instances of the sexual abuse of children. ...

Is it really? Or is it about scout leaders who observe a victimization rate of 0.07% and look anywhere else besides BSA ... that rate is 100 fold? Could it be that BSA believes that if it is liquidated -- followed by the targeting of every organization that hosts youth, and school districts, and even the institution of family itself -- that the next five decades will be one of even greater sexual predation on our youth?

Edited May 12, 2021 by qwazse

[CynicalScouter]

1 minute ago, qwazse said:

followed by the targeting of every organization that hosts youth, and school districts, and even the institution of family itself

Oh, that's why BSA is doing sweetheart deals with Hartford?

And shell games with Summit (and refusing to turn over the financial documents associated with it to be reviewed)?

And offering $6000 to victims?

To protect families and family values? "the institution of the family itself"?

Wow. How noble.

[qwazse]

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

Neither is downplaying sexual abuse of minors or justifying BSA's actions in covering it up for decades.

Nor is failing to acknowledge the success in reducing rates of sexual abuse of minors ...

Nor is failing to show that there was an alternative that has succeed in reducing those rates by another order of magnitude ...

Nor is showing how this will be a net benefit to youth going forward ...

Proposing that 0.07% of all scouts ever and their attorneys are worthy of orders of magnitude more than a billion dollars by virtue of their victimization ... Proposing further, without evidence, that nobody will be put at increased risk in the process. That victims somehow better know what to do with those resources because, well, at least they aren't scout execs ...

Maybe that is kind in somebody's neck of the woods. But that sentiment is far from universal.

[CynicalScouter]

1 minute ago, qwazse said:

Nor is failing to acknowledge the success in reducing rates of sexual abuse of minors ...

Which has precisely zilch to do with the legal question: was BSA negligent in allowing those scouts to be abused? The answer is yes. The question is: how much.

The fact that BSA cleaned up its act has NO bearing in what compensation the victims should or will be getting.

[gpurlee]

I attended a national conference on youth protection with the top experts in the field present. In terms of Scouting, it was reported that the number one category of abuse is now youth on youth.  

I would anticipate that any revisions in youth protection training would see an increased emphasis in this area.

Already several scouting units have apparently implemented single person tenting only among youth.  

[mrjohns2]

1 minute ago, gpurlee said:

Already several scouting units have apparently implemented single person tenting only among youth.  

Was this before or after covid? All units on our council have been doing 1/tent for the last 14 months for covid, not YPT. 

[CynicalScouter]

10 minutes ago, gpurlee said:

In terms of Scouting, it was reported that the number one category of abuse is now youth on youth.

Right now the rule is no tenting if more than two years separation. I wonder if that will change to "no youth tenting together at all" or "no UNRELATED youth"?

Edited May 14, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[yknot]

1 hour ago, vol_scouter said:

I understand your first comments and have thought about it long and hard.  It has made me question my involvement with Scouting.

It is my belief that there is no youth serving organization that can be formed where the incidence of child sexual abuse (CSA) is zero.  CSA occurs in the home so if an organization existed that only allowed any contact between youth and adults was by parents, I believe that some children will be abused.

How do we get that number to be as low as humanly possible?  The parents must be primarily responsible for what happens to their children.  They must be vigilant and questioning of each and every person around their children.  They must have a little suspicion about anyone interacting with their children.  They must be involved with their children's activities and attend much of what they are doing.

When a mother takes a child to a troop meeting and she is told, perhaps very politely, that she is not really welcome, then she should recover her child immediately and the council should be notified.  If the council does not remove the leader in question assuming that the story can be reasonably substantiated, then it should be disciplined by the national council.

Parents are the key to lowering the rates to the number occurring in the homes that is outside of this realm to address.  Until YSOs can share the responsibilities of youth protection between all concerned - professionals, volunteers, and parents, the minimum cannot be reached.  That is my belief.

Parental accountability is part of the problem. BSA, when marketing to increase membership, routinely articulates that scouting is good for all boys and now, with the addition of girls, all children. It does not market itself as a program that is only good for children of vigilant parents. Scouting certainly tries to encourage parents to be involved, but in a weird and not always successful way. BSA wants you on the camp out, but you need to stay 100 yards away from the kids. There are some very mixed messages in scouting and some program elements that make it very porous for predators to enter and operate.. 

 

[Eagledad]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Unfortunately you are seeing and living the nightmare that many in BSA and the forum consider children sexually abused just the cost of having BSA. A cost the children abused must pay.

Really! This is very offensive. I’d like to see your polling data. 
 

Barry

[CynicalScouter]

4 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

If the BSA is to take what is considered a top notch program

Considered by who? BSA? Again, their credibility in this area is, precisely, zero.

If BSA cannot handle a little review and oversight and is going into defensive crouch mode at even the SUGGESTION of an outside monitor, then that tell the victims that BSA isn't serious about YP.

If it was, it would WELCOME outside review. Not shy away from it.

[CynicalScouter]

9 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

If the BSA is to take what is considered a top notch program

I keep hearing from BSA and BSA-defenders over and over "BSA's program is top notch" or gold standard or whatnot.

And I keep asking: according to who? Are there peer reviewed studies demonstrating efficacy? Or is it simply BSA patting itself on the back, insisting it learned its lesson, but of course REFUSING to allow any outside or external review?

Yep.

For example, and just by way of example, the Catholic Church's Virtus program has been the subject of a dozen or more peer reviewed studies from a host of different perspectives (psychological, criminal justice, etc.)

BSA's YPT? Not a single study. Funny how that works out that the self-described "top notch program" has exactly zero external support for that statement.

[RememberSchiff]

14 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I keep hearing from BSA and BSA-defenders over and over "BSA's program is top notch" or gold standard or whatnot.

And I keep asking: according to who?

To whoever expressed that opinion and that is all it is an opinion.

[vol_scouter]

16 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I keep hearing from BSA and BSA-defenders over and over "BSA's program is top notch" or gold standard or whatnot.

And I keep asking: according to who? Are there peer reviewed studies demonstrating efficacy? Or is it simply BSA patting itself on the back, insisting it learned its lesson, but of course REFUSING to allow any outside or external review?

Yep.

For example, and just by way of example, the Catholic Church's Virtus program has been the subject of a dozen or more peer reviewed studies from a host of different perspectives (psychological, criminal justice, etc.)

BSA's YPT? Not a single study. Funny how that works out that the self-described "top notch program" has exactly zero external support for that statement.

The program that was released a couple of years ago was done by the nation’s experts on child sexual abuse.  There was a desire to study the efficacy of the new program but the BSA is strapped for funds and has downsized making such studies to be done correctly with outside researchers impossible.  I hope that such studies are done in the future.  

[5thGenTexan]

YPT is a top notch program?

I have taken it 3 or 4 times, sometimes early when the first new revision was released a couple of years ago.  I don't put much faith in it at all.

 

BIG problem I have is the method for taking the training.  There is ZERO oversight on verifying the adult name on the certificate is the person who took sat through the training.  Granted, this is a little bit of hyperbole, but you could get one of those toy bird things that dips its beak in water and swings back up to hit the keyboard to advance the slide for the training and then breeze through the "quiz".  Next,,, you could get someone to sit down and "take" the training while you do something else and then print the certificate.  I know how much of a pain it would be to get potential leaders to take the time, but for YPT needs to be a half day in person training. 

 

45 minutes to an hour of online training with a couple of questions at the end with no way to prove the training taker is the actual applicant is a joke.  

[mrjohns2]

I keep calling it YPT, but the question at hand isn’t YPT, but the results (output measures) of YP. So, YPT could be poor, but is YP getting the results we want/need? Due to the lack of transparency, we don’t know. 
 

The poor implementation of YPT makes one question the quality of the system even though it is just an “in process” type of thing vs. “result” type of thing.