Dissonance between Pack and Troop - Seeking the wisdom of the hive.

[Frogman8]

Slightly long message.  However grateful for your advice.

I am the elected CC of my Cub Pack and have been den leader for both my kids dens, and an avid Scouter for the last 7 years .  Four years ago, our same number/ sister Troop split due to issues with newly bridged Cubmaster and den leaders being disallowed from camping trips with Troop for a year after bridging to this troop, among several other un-inclusive practices. (Dunno why they would want to exclude trained and enthusiastic Leaders...but they did, to retain 'control'.)

The Parents who split off had originally recruited almost our entire Pack so our Pack parents naturally have close connects with them. 

We are also the largest and most active Pack in our District with around 40 Cubs. 

Over the years, our AOLs have chosen to bridge over to this new Troop due to sibling connects and parental comfort. The same happened this year too, following which the CO dismissed me (CC) and our Cubmaster for 'failing to get the Pack to work with the Troop'.  We haven't been doing joint events for a few years. Our sister Troop made no effort to market themselves to our Pack parents either.

Our sister / same number troop has recruited very few Scouts over the last 4 yrs (average age is now around 15) and their survival is threatened. Our Pack tried to partner with them for a few events, but CO is trying to lay down a 'mandate' that our AOLs must bridge only to this sister Troop. We as parents dont want that and have offered to start a new Pack to eliminate this long conflict, and allow the Troop to 'take back the Pack' and rebuild their CubScout Pipeline. 

Due to our Packs great fundraising for the last 4-5 years, and lack of outings last year, we have $ 6000 in the bank. We know this technically belongs to the CO. We could have spent it all on the Scouts before we left, but that was not the right thing to do. Our Pack leaders and parents want to conduct ourselves with the highest integrity and live by our Scout values.

We have politely proposed a split, so that new Pack doesnt have to start fundraising in a Pandemic.      (I am not keen to leave it all behind, as many of our scouts sell popcorn and camp cards door to door. I believe it builds confidence, character, grit to accept rejections, goal orientation and we have recruited a whole lot of Cubs this way.  My son has sold over 1000 each season this way for the last 4 years, he absolutely loves it, but i digress)

We proposed leaving 1000 in the bank and split the balance 5000 in ratio of leavers to those that stay (subsequently 100% of parents have decided to leave to found new Pack)  We tried asking Council (District Senior Exec) to mediate and get the Troop + CO to do what's in the best interest of Scouting - let us take some money and leave the Pack with goodwill. 

The mediation is a failure and CO wants to retain all the Packs funds. We know its in their 'right' to do this, but we don't believe its the right thing to do nor in the best interest if Scouting, as we could lose parents who don't want to fundraise at this time and many are dismayed at the way CM and I have been dismissed.

Communication with Troop and CO is very poor. Single line 'orders' in response to our emails and requests to discuss our proposal or any other they propose. Newly appointed CC and CM are Troop parents with no cubs in the Pack. They haven't even bothered to call a meeting to speak to parents, just want us to hand over the bank account to them immediately. 

I am personally disheartened that a thriving Pack is being bullied by our CO and dying sister Troop, and Council is not doing enough to retain enthusiastic parents and Scouts.

What would you suggest in such a situation? 

Thanks in advance.

 

 

 

 

[John-in-KC]

First, welcome to Scouter. 
 

second, relax.  Scouts USA is about youth becoming independent.  Frankly, I’d rather see you as a merit badge counselor, Troop Treasurer, or ride coordinator … work in the background. 
 

as far as the COR goes, he can try to say that all he wants,  but families go to the unit with the best program.  There is absolutely nothing he can do to stop families from making choices. If your District Advancement Chair is anything like a friend of mine, he will take away access to Scout Net advancement module for the unit, and have a district guy do it!

So, enjoy the journey, and do the right thing by the youth members. 

[MikeS72]

52 minutes ago, Frogman8 said:

CO is trying to lay down a 'mandate' that our AOLs must bridge only to this sister Troop.

There is a reason that AOL dens are encouraged to visit multiple troops.  No CO has the authority to mandate where those AOLs go once their Cub days come to an end.  Some years we have had all of the scouts from the Pack that our CO charters choose to join our troop, in other years we have had them cross over to 3 different troops, always their choice.

I sympathize with the treasury situation.  As hard as it is to walk away from those funds that your scouts raised, it sounds like removing them from the toxic situation they are in is the best thing to do at this point.  Good luck!

[qwazse]

Have a really nice B&G, pay for summer camp, and be done with it.

[Frogman8]

Thanks for the advice, we are leaving to form a new Pack. I just was keen to find a way for the Scouts to have atleast some of the money for their activities rather than spend time yet again fundraising after a bad year when we have all been waiting to get out. 

We are thinking of Donating the funds to a Food Bank that we have partnered with, in the name of the Pack. The idea of them usurping such a large amount and not sharing any with us is what's galling. I know they have a right to do it. We would rather take the poison pill of a donation to a food bank , rather than them having a bank account that will never be able to attract Scouts due to their ridiculous Troop rules and entitlement mindset. 

What do you think of this idea?

[CynicalScouter]

27 minutes ago, Frogman8 said:

What do you think of this idea?

I think it is going to cause more trouble. Those funds are the COs. You know it. You admit it. If at this point you attempt to divert them are you are going out the door for a non-Scouting purpose in defiance of the COs desire to keep those funds for that unit as it goes forward, you are facing legal (both civil and yes criminal) liability.

It stinks, it really does, but do not do something that is going to jeopardize your future.

Edited May 14, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[MattR]

Unfortunately, that money is gone. It's time to let it go. 

How about a small fundraiser to get you through the rest of the year? 

[RandomScouter]

Welcome, welcome, welcome!

There is an old saying (predates girls in ScoutsBSA program):  The boy chooses the Troop.

I'm very sorry to hear your DE wasn't able to help.  

My first impulse is to agree with qwazse - use the Pack funds for the benefit of the Pack (B&G, summer camp) and then be on your way.  If the cubs are still part of the Pack, then using the $$ to help those children progress in the Scouting program is appropriate.

The CO is within their right to dismiss leaders and appoint new ones; however, until the paperwork is filed with the Council, I don't think it counts as "official."  

At the end of the day, it's like leaving a bad relationship.  If you don't want the other party to have reason to come after you/harass you, you have to leave the couch and the lamps, and the silverware and start over.  It stinks, and it hurts, and it's unfair, and it's hard not to be bitter, but it's also the example you are giving your children. (By following the rules, even when you don't want to, you teach them how to be morally straight.)

Best of luck to you and the rest of the Pack.  (And be sure to keep us updated.)

[Eagle94-A1]

1. WELCOME TO DA FORUMS!

 

2. I am going to respond section by section to your OP.

7 hours ago, Frogman8 said:

Slightly long message.  However grateful for your advice.

I am the elected CC of my Cub Pack and have been den leader for both my kids dens, and an avid Scouter for the last 7 years .  Four years ago, our same number/ sister Troop split due to issues with newly bridged Cubmaster and den leaders being disallowed from camping trips with Troop for a year after bridging to this troop, among several other un-inclusive practices. (Dunno why they would want to exclude trained and enthusiastic Leaders...but they did, to retain 'control'.)

Several troops I have been in over the years have limited the involvement of TRAINED CUB SCOUT LEADERS until they they become TRAINED BOY SCOUT/SCOUTS BSA SCOUTERS (caps for emphasis). And the full training can take that long to complete and be fully absorbed. I can tell you that it is not to retain control, rather it is for the new adults to be understand and see the Scouts BSA program and how it truly works. If you look at my posts from about 2017 to 2018, you can read about what enthusiastic, but UNTRAINED BOY SCOUT/SCOUTS BSA SCOUTERS (again emphasis), can slowly destroy a Scout program by trying to continue as if Scouts BSA is just older Cub Scouts. My sons and I had to leave the troop because these enthusiastic and untrained adults were interfering, contradicting  Scouts in charge, etc. It got to the point that the leaders in the troop, the Scouts, were walking away from their jobs in disgust. And  whenever the SM and ASMs tried to talk to them, mentor them, etc we were ignored, threatened with leaving the activity if they didn't get their way ( which would have caused major transportation problems), etc. The COR had to intervene because we left, and the Scouts started complaining about the adults at the BORs.

And even trained adults and those knowing better sometimes need "Cub Scout Leader deprogramming." One of the adults above was "trained" doing the online training and ITOLS. Yet he was still stuck in Cub Scout Mode. As I Scout, I HATED (emphasis) Cross Over time, because we would have a bunch of new adults interfering until the SM and ASMs got them out of our hair. Guess what happened when I Crossed Over with my oldest? Yep I needed some reminders that I was doing exactly what I hated back in the day.

So the troop may have had a very good reason for wanting that 1 year break.

Quote

The Parents who split off had originally recruited almost our entire Pack so our Pack parents naturally have close connects with them. 

We are also the largest and most active Pack in our District with around 40 Cubs. 

Over the years, our AOLs have chosen to bridge over to this new Troop due to sibling connects and parental comfort. The same happened this year too, following which the CO dismissed me (CC) and our Cubmaster for 'failing to get the Pack to work with the Troop'.  We haven't been doing joint events for a few years. Our sister Troop made no effort to market themselves to our Pack parents either.

Sad to see the split happen.  But I can understand folks wanting to go where they are comfortable at with people they know. And yes, the CO is the ultimate selector of leaders. While the troop didn't market to the pack, did the pack ask for help from the troop?

I saw the same situation happen many times over the years. Sometimes the troop does not market to the pack, but does the pack ask the troop for stuff, i.e. Den Chiefs, Blue and Golds, camp outs for the Webelos, etc? If the troop ignored the requests, I can see where recruitment fell.

But it is a two way streak.

 

Quote

Our sister / same number troop has recruited very few Scouts over the last 4 yrs (average age is now around 15) and their survival is threatened. Our Pack tried to partner with them for a few events, but CO is trying to lay down a 'mandate' that our AOLs must bridge only to this sister Troop. We as parents dont want that and have offered to start a new Pack to eliminate this long conflict, and allow the Troop to 'take back the Pack' and rebuild their CubScout Pipeline. 

Understandable.

 

Quote

Due to our Packs great fundraising for the last 4-5 years, and lack of outings last year, we have $ 6000 in the bank. We know this technically belongs to the CO. We could have spent it all on the Scouts before we left, but that was not the right thing to do. Our Pack leaders and parents want to conduct ourselves with the highest integrity and live by our Scout values.

Yes the money belongs to the CO, not the individual Scouts and leaders. Glad you want to have integrity.

 

Quote

We have politely proposed a split, so that new Pack doesnt have to start fundraising in a Pandemic.      (I am not keen to leave it all behind, as many of our scouts sell popcorn and camp cards door to door. I believe it builds confidence, character, grit to accept rejections, goal orientation and we have recruited a whole lot of Cubs this way.  My son has sold over 1000 each season this way for the last 4 years, he absolutely loves it, but i digress)

It does not matter where the money came from, it only matters that it belongs to the pack you are leaving. 

 

Quote

We proposed leaving 1000 in the bank and split the balance 5000 in ratio of leavers to those that stay (subsequently 100% of parents have decided to leave to found new Pack)  We tried asking Council (District Senior Exec) to mediate and get the Troop + CO to do what's in the best interest of Scouting - let us take some money and leave the Pack with goodwill. 

As a former professional, I can tell you that this is a CO internal matter, and they WILL NOT ( emphasis) get involved  UNLESS SOMETHING CRIMINAL HAPPENS ( emphasis) and then I they will side with the CO because the CO owns the money. 

 

Quote

The mediation is a failure and CO wants to retain all the Packs funds. We know its in their 'right' to do this, but we don't believe its the right thing to do nor in the best interest if Scouting, as we could lose parents who don't want to fundraise at this time and many are dismayed at the way CM and I have been dismissed.

Communication with Troop and CO is very poor. Single line 'orders' in response to our emails and requests to discuss our proposal or any other they propose. Newly appointed CC and CM are Troop parents with no cubs in the Pack. They haven't even bothered to call a meeting to speak to parents, just want us to hand over the bank account to them immediately. 

Sadly that is their legal right. And I can tell you, if you do not hand over the account information, that can lead to some criminal charges.

 

Quote

I am personally disheartened that a thriving Pack is being bullied by our CO and dying sister Troop, and Council is not doing enough to retain enthusiastic parents and Scouts.

The CO owns the pack, so they are exercising their rights of control. So they are not bullying. As for council, their hands are tied. This is an internal Charter Organization matter that the CO needs to resolves. Once something criminal happens, like the refusal to turn over funds, then the Council will get involved. But from the looks of things the council, as well as the law, will be on the CO's side.

 

Quote

What would you suggest in such a situation? 

Thanks in advance.

Unfortunately I would let if go. I know it is hard, I had to walk away from money when my boys and I left. But the peace of mind will be worth it.

 

1 hour ago, Frogman8 said:

We are thinking of Donating the funds to a Food Bank that we have partnered with, in the name of the Pack. The idea of them usurping such a large amount and not sharing any with us is what's galling. I know they have a right to do it. We would rather take the poison pill of a donation to a food bank , rather than them having a bank account that will never be able to attract Scouts due to their ridiculous Troop rules and entitlement mindset. 

What do you think of this idea?

DO NOT DO THIS!

This is illegal. You have been asked to turn over the bank account information and have refused so far. The CO can press charges as it is, report you to the council for embezzlement if I am not mistaken,  and have you removed from Scouting altogether as it is. Dispersing funds that you no longer have any legal right to  will make matters worse, much worse.

I know it is tough. I know you will be second guessing yourself. I know you will miss the friends who remain with the old pack. I know leaving money behind will be  a heavy burden financially. BUT YOU NEED TO THINK ABOUT WHAT IS BEST FOR YOUR CHILDREN! 

Leaving a toxic situation like the one you are describing will be the hardest, but best thing you can do. Trust me no matter how much you try to hide the toxicity, they know it is there and it is affecting them whether you see it or not.

The best thing you can do is turn over the back account access, forget about the money, and make that new pack the best pack in town for your kids. 

[GrubKnot]

I can confirm that some Troops in my area also won't/don't let cub parents & leaders be Troop leaders for the first year after their scouts bridge. And from personal experience, after being a ADL & DL for both of my boys in cubs I needed a break.

[fred8033]

3 hours ago, Frogman8 said:

What do you think of this idea?

The CO has already told you they have other plans / thoughts.  If you want the funds to go to a food bank, get the CO approval first.  If you do it first on-your-own, it's not a good deed.  It's just spite and will cause more trouble. 

When you decide to move on or you've been told to move on, move on.  Don't look back.  Don't go for vengeance.  Just move on.  Find the next best path for you and your kids.  

Also, don't try to help ... especially if you've already been told they want to make a change.  It's their issue now. 

Yes, you've lost the funds.  That is how it works.  It is and always was the CO's money.  Ideally to be used for scouting, but it's still their funds. 

Edited May 14, 2021 by fred8033

[mrjohns2]

On 5/14/2021 at 1:30 AM, Frogman8 said:

Due to our Packs great fundraising for the last 4-5 years, and lack of outings last year, we have $ 6000 in the bank. We know this technically belongs to the CO.

It is a bit more complicated than that. If the unit isn't folding, than it still belongs to the unit.

If the unit is folding, then it sounds like the funds need to be redeployed for Scouting use in the local area. It hasn't always been worded this way.

 "In the event of the dissolution of a unit or the revocation or lapse of its charter, unit funds and assets must be used to first satisfy any 
outstanding unit obligations. Any remaining assets obtained with funds raised in the name of Scouting must be redeployed for Scouting
use in the local area. Any assets obtained with funds from the chartered organization or parents of registered members may be redeployed 
as agreed upon by the chartered organization and local council."

[CynicalScouter]

28 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

It is a bit more complicated than that. If the unit isn't folding, than it still belongs to the unit.

Except that money belongs to the CO. If they try to cut a check to themselves, or to some charity, they are going to get into trouble, this per BSA's legal department, not to mention possible criminal embezzlement charges.

https://filestore.scouting.org/filestore/financeimpact/pdf/fiscal_policies_and_procedures_for_bsa_units.pdf

Quote

Who is responsible for the finances of the unit?

The unit committee is responsible, but the assets belong to the chartered organization.

This does NOT sound like a full dissolution, but disgruntled parents leaving. If they leave, they do NOT get to take the cash with them.

On 5/14/2021 at 2:30 AM, Frogman8 said:

We have politely proposed a split, so that new Pack doesnt have to start fundraising in a Pandemic. 

Edited May 15, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

On 5/14/2021 at 9:36 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

DO NOT DO THIS!

This is illegal. You have been asked to turn over the bank account information and have refused so far. The CO can press charges as it is, report you to the council for embezzlement if I am not mistaken,  and have you removed from Scouting altogether as it is. Dispersing funds that you no longer have any legal right to  will make matters worse, much worse.

I just want to echo and reiterate this. The money is NOT yours to divert. You are asking/begging for criminal charges here.

[mrjohns2]

 

6 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Except that money belongs to the CO. If they try to cut a check to themselves, or to some charity, they are going to get into trouble, this per BSA's legal department, not to mention possible criminal embezzlement charges.

Why did you respond like I didn't give 2 different scenarios?

Let me say it again....

1) If the unit isn't dissolving, the money stays with the unit.

2) If the unit is dissolving, then the money isn't the CO's cut and dry. 

What part of the rules and regulations of Scouting am I not understanding? If the unit is dissolving, it is NOT THE CO's UNLESS IT WAS FROM THEM OR THE PARENTS. If it was raised for Scouting, it goes to Scouting, not the CO. 

 

Rules_Regulations_Sept20 (scouting.org)