Almost 20 Cub Scout Adventures getting eliminated, almost all STEM based

[malraux]

31 minutes ago, GrubKnot said:

As ADL & DL for both of my boys from tiger to AOL, ( the youngest earned AOL in 2019) and in hindsight, I wouldn't join CS till the wolf year at the earliest. The journey from Lion to AOL is loooong and burnout is a thing for both scouts & leaders. Somewhere on another thread is a discussion about changes that could benefit Cubs.  Just guessing from your post, your family is probably active in outdoor pursuits (camping, hiking, etc.) I would say wait till webelos, your youngest scout will be excited for the new adventures.

If I were to magic wand change the cub scouting program, I would break k-2 and 3-5 into separate programs/units. The little kids would meet much less often and have the tighter adult participation requirements. Then 3-5 would expand the webelos program such that they could camp somewhat independently, have looser safety rules, etc. really 5th graders and k are very divergent in their capacities. 

[yknot]

6 minutes ago, malraux said:

If I were to magic wand change the cub scouting program, I would break k-2 and 3-5 into separate programs/units. The little kids would meet much less often and have the tighter adult participation requirements. Then 3-5 would expand the webelos program such that they could camp somewhat independently, have looser safety rules, etc. really 5th graders and k are very divergent in their capacities. 

Combining 4th and 5th graders with kindergarten and first graders is one of the top reasons cited to me by parents as to why their older scouts stop coming to pack meetings or even leave scouts. For a youth organization, BSA often seems to know little about kids. The idea that 9 and 10 year old kids will enjoy "teaching" or "running" things for younger kids when they themselves still want to run around and have fun isn't all that practical. Most anything designed to appeal to 4th and 5th graders is likely to be too long for K-2. In the school system, we always broke things down K-2 and 3-4 or 5. In recent years, grade level specific even has become more the norm. Even at the troop level, it can be a stretch to have 10 year old and 17 year old kids together. 

[Eagledad]

3 minutes ago, yknot said:

Combining 4th and 5th graders with kindergarten and first graders is one of the top reasons cited to me by parents as to why their older scouts stop coming to pack meetings or even leave scouts. For a youth organization, BSA often seems to know little about kids. The idea that 9 and 10 year old kids will enjoy "teaching" or "running" things for younger kids when they themselves still want to run around and have fun isn't all that practical. Most anything designed to appeal to 4th and 5th graders is likely to be too long for K-2. In the school system, we always broke things down K-2 and 3-4 or 5. In recent years, grade level specific even has become more the norm. Even at the troop level, it can be a stretch to have 10 year old and 17 year old kids together. 

I agree, but the killer is Tigers. Most of the Tigers are still Toddlers and should be split from the Pack program. The difference of listening skills and reading skills is night and day. That one year of a classroom experience creates a night and day difference for behavior between the two ages. In fact, we did reduce our Tiger program to just two meetings a month and our membership retention rate went from 30 percent to 95 percent. 

Ironically, the Tiger program demands so much adult management that is drains the adults resource pool to the point that adult burnout is the main cause of membership dropouts from Bears to Webelos II. Giving the Webelos a more mature program isn't that hard, but that effort does require more adult effort. However, the more mature Webelos program also raised our Webelos retention to almost 100 percent. 

Barry

[malraux]

32 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Giving the Webelos a more mature program isn't that hard, but that effort does require more adult effort. However, the more mature Webelos program also raised our Webelos retention to almost 100 percent. 

While it does take adult effort, it also takes less people and it’s more rewarding. 

[LaraG03]

Quote

As ADL & DL for both of my boys from tiger to AOL, ( the youngest earned AOL in 2019) and in hindsight, I wouldn't join CS till the wolf year at the earliest. The journey from Lion to AOL is loooong and burnout is a thing for both scouts & leaders. Somewhere on another thread is a discussion about changes that could benefit Cubs.  Just guessing from your post, your family is probably active in outdoor pursuits (camping, hiking, etc.) I would say wait till webelos, your youngest scout will be excited for the new adventures.

Thanks for the honest opinions everyone!

We're slowly getting back into camping, etc. now that COVID restrictions are loosening up!  My little guy has been anxious to be a Scout like his big brother, and his two older sisters (13 and 10) are American Heritage Girls, so he's been around some sort of scouting program all his life.  I considered waiting for Wolf, but he's so excited that I ended up buying his Lion book (and the leader's book,) to look through it and he anxious to get started.  Guess we'll have to see how it goes and perhaps supplement with family activities if needed.  Somehow, I have a feeling I'll be back in the DL rotation this fall!  I'll have to look for that other thread, thank you!

[Double Eagle]

After reading the recent threads on this, I just have to mention how advancement posters and handbooks will have to be changed again.  They just changed the Wolf colors to red a couple years ago.  To think they had a team/staff work on this Cub revision.  As CS handbooks go for $17 off the scoutshop site, have to be replaced each year with rank advancement, what are they thinking.  I know we've had CS rank handbooks from my time in the 70's until now, but may be a time to go away from hardcopy books as a whole.  Just make them a free download with a completed registration form.  Please don't mention scoutbook just yet until that site gets into detail on requirements/electives like a handbook.

[mrjohns2]

On 7/7/2021 at 7:37 AM, Double Eagle said:

As CS handbooks go for $17 off the scoutshop site, have to be replaced each year with rank advancement, what are they thinking.

I don't understand this point. They are replaced each year, so they go through them pretty quickly. Yes, they have to redesign them, but the cubs get a new one each year except for Webelos. 

[yknot]

32 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

I don't understand this point. They are replaced each year, so they go through them pretty quickly. Yes, they have to redesign them, but the cubs get a new one each year except for Webelos. 

Because I think we need to be looking at ways to make cubs cheaper and easier for parents? Practically everything else under the sun today for kids exists as a cheap pdf download. There is no reason to make cubs buy a hard copy book every single year. At the troop level they usually just buy one. That makes more sense although I don't even see the reason for a scout to have lug around a book either.  

[5thGenTexan]

2 hours ago, yknot said:

Because I think we need to be looking at ways to make cubs cheaper and easier for parents? Practically everything else under the sun today for kids exists as a cheap pdf download. There is no reason to make cubs buy a hard copy book every single year. At the troop level they usually just buy one. That makes more sense although I don't even see the reason for a scout to have lug around a book either.  

We stopped buying books for everyone a couple of years ago.  BUT, I am making my AOLs lug around a book and encouraging the Webelos do the same.

[Eagle94-A1]

 My thoughts. I was conducting the transition training in 2015, and know one of the folks involved on the 511 Committee that made the changes.

1. The current program is NOT the  original new program that came out on June 1, 2015.  National watered down the changes in December 2016, without advising the committee they were doing so.

Not all packs had folks attending those training sessions. If the pack in my area that did not attend was like the others around the nation, it was a major "Charlie Foxtrot." They had no clue what they were doing, had a poor program  and complained about all the changes. I know the pack I was with did not implement the December 2016 changes until May 2017, once the School year ended.

2. Not having the correct program info hurt. National hadva large inventory of books with 2015 info when the made the changes. I saw some of those books years later still being sold. In fact my youngest got one of the 2015 Webelos books in 2018.

3. The program was designed for some repetition of activities.  It required imagination on the parts of DLs to expand on those parts and make interesting.

4. Middle Son and den enjoyed the 2015 Webelos Program. Since they were almost finished with AOL rank when the program abruptly changed, they carried on with 2015 requirements. 

5. Only boredom I found was with youngest. But he had been tagging along with older brothers since he was in diapers. At some points he was helping teach his den mates .

6. I have no experience with Lions,  but from a burnout point of view,  i think it contributes. 

7. The imagination, creativity, experience, and zest that a DL has directly influences program. The Program Helps are just that, HELPS. They give a foundation. The more you add the better the program.

[PeterHopkins]

On 7/21/2021 at 9:05 AM, Eagle94-A1 said:

I know the pack I was with did not implement the December 2016 changes until May 2017, once the School year ended.

My daughter attended a six-night Cub resident camp in 2019. At departure, we got a list of adventure requirements she completed. When I tried to enter the data into Scoutbook, some of the requirement numbers on the list did not exist. I realized they were still using the 2015 requirements, and I had to map them to the 2016 requirements to figure out what to sign off.

[Eagle94-A1]

On 8/25/2021 at 4:17 PM, PeterHopkins said:

I realized they were still using the 2015 requirements, and I had to map them to the 2016 requirements to figure out what to sign off.

WOW. 

I understood why my pack did not change to the December 2016 requirements as soon as it went into effect and waited until June 2016 when the Program Year ended. A) The Scouts were midway through their books, and changing requirements midyear was one one of the silliest things National did; B. the Webelos 2s/ AOLs had completed everything except one requirement for an elective AB that they needed to Cross Over and to make them change requirements midstream is not fair to them;  and C) the new requirements would have required the pack to replan the rest of the year that was planned and advertised since August.

 

Using the old requirements 3 years after they changed and new books have been published?