Chapter 11 announced - Part 3 - BSA's Toggle Plan

[CynicalScouter]

4 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

They failed to affirmatively act to prevent is to allow.

Used to be nonfeasance: you were REQUIRED BY LAW OR DUTY to do something but failed to do so.

BSA was

1. required by common law and duty to take care that youth were not harmed   (duty to care generally, duty to care for minors in particular)
2. through its negligence (not: NOT willfulness, NOT deliberate act, NEGLIGENCE)
3. allowed them to be harmed.

[ThenNow]

47 minutes ago, qwazse said:

As did the very first non-reporting victim of every abuser. So, why not sue them? Or their families for not training them to report? Is it because they are somehow innocent by not being part of a corporation?

It's unfortunate this offensive argument is being recycled. As I've said before, it's mind boggling to have this burden and liability placed on my 11 year old self. Mystery solved. I feel so much better knowing I am the one to blame for my continued abuse and that of others abused after me by our perverse Scoutmaster. Does this really make sense to anyone else. Really? I and/or my parents were equally responsible and now liable alongside the DE later SE who knew there was grooming behavior going on in our Troop? I was supervising the other 11-13 year olds...? Really?

Edited May 28, 2021 by ThenNow

[johnsch322]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

But, for organizations, the bigger threat at the time was being sued for libel/slander. And @johnsch322, that's where enabling the victim went straight out the window. I have seen the 21st century BSA provide counseling, but I don't think anyone expected an organization to provide anything of the sort before then. To do so would have meant instant litigation. And, perpetrators can and did argue that a person in counseling wasn't fit to testify ... making achieving convictions even harder on victims and families.

I find this point of view to be shall we say...BS no A.  The biggest threat was the bad publicity.  A secondary concern was litigation as in the 50's and 60's very little civil suits were being filed on behalf of victims of sexual assault.  As far as the 21st century BSA offering counseling when did that happen?  If I am not mistaken it started when they wanted to test the waters to see how many victims might come forward.  The cover up is always worse than the crime i.e. Richard Nixon and Watergate.  And make no mistake this has been a cover up!!

[CynicalScouter]

7 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

As I've said before, it's mind boggling to have this burden and liability placed on my 11 year old self. Mystery solved. I feel so much better knowing I am the one to blame for my continued abuse and that of others abused after me by our perverse Scoutmaster.

You were a victim. I am sorry some people in this forum are trying to victimize you again.

[CynicalScouter]

10 minutes ago, johnsch322 said:

And make no mistake this has been a cover up!!

Yep. To this day, BSA tried a coverup. TCC and others asked BSA to release the number of out of court settlements they had reached in these sexual abuse cases. BSA would only allow release of 3 or 4 years of settlement data until they were forced to try and defend that in front of the judge at the hearing a few weeks ago. To my recollection, BSA said it would release the full list of settlements to TCC.

They are still trying to cover up how much they knew and when.

That's why, well one of the reasons why, the TCC is asking for the FULL release of the IV files (names redacted) to make it clear: BSA knew for DECADES it had a problem.

Edited May 28, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[elitts]

45 minutes ago, 100thEagleScout said:

What’s even worse is when BSA local councils hired/retained paid counselors they knew or should have known were likely to abuse children/their peers.  This isn’t just a problem from the 1970s like BSA likes to make us all think.  This problem stretches to as recently as 2 years ago right before COVID-19.  My council was particularly bad about it and is the reason I’m suing them.  Ridiculous that I had to go to my high school teacher at the time to report something I reported to the LC who didn’t take any action whatsoever besides being too late at firing from camp.  I think it took another 4-6 months for him to get banned from Scouting forever.

I'm confused, what "paid counselors" did BSA hire with a known history of abuse?  Most pedophiles are pretty dedicated to maintaining their cover as "respectable" and mask themselves fairly well.

And what other action do you think the LC should have taken?  Typically with accusations of this nature you'd get an immediate suspension with orders to "stay away" following a review of the accusation, but then the actual investigation takes a couple of months because you have to do everything officially, with plenty of notice.  And then only after a complete investigation would official sanctions be imposed.  So 4-6 months sounds fairly normal.

46 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

No, it is on the line because it acted negligent over the course of DECADES when it knew it had a child sexual abuse problem and did nothing. And the dozens of lawsuits they've already lost and settlements they reached, not to mention the information and statements from BSA officials released when Oregon courts ordered the IV files partially opened show BSA knew, did nothing (or nothing much), and just kept on going doing what it was doing.

But the existence of lawsuits and settlements in our country doesn't always indicate a "problem".  If it did then virtually every major hospital in the country would be guilty of ignoring their "problem" since most of them have plenty of suits and settlements on their books.  Lawsuits and settlements (in and of themselves) are just a fact of life and the cost of doing business in the US.

 

[elitts]

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

Just a gentle reminder: the sexual abuse victims are the victims here. Not BSA.

Thanks.

 

1 hour ago, ThenNow said:

It's unfortunate this offensive argument is being recycled. As I've said before, it's mind boggling to have this burden and liability placed on my 11 year old self. Mystery solved. I feel so much better knowing I am the one to blame for my continued abuse and that of others abused after me by our perverse Scoutmaster. Does this really make sense to anyone else. Really? I and/or my parents were equally responsible and now liable alongside the DE later SE who knew there was grooming behavior going on in our Troop? I was supervising the other 11-13 year olds...? Really?

 

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

You were a victim. I am sorry some people in this forum are trying to victimize you again.

It's fairly clear from the post that Qwaze was attempting to illustrate a point regarding legal liability and the peculiarities of it under US law, NOT actually directing blame at the victims for either filing their cases or staying quiet.  It was an insensitive method of making the point and was riding the line of what will be acceptable in this thread, but it was not the kind of outright "victim blaming" that was an issue a few weeks ago.

So.. To everyone out there, while there is a responsibility upon the reader to read posts in their entirety and consider the context before responding, there is also a responsibility as a Kind and Courteous person to consider the way our wording might impact people sensitive to the issues here.  I'm not saying you can't make a pointed argument when necessary, or that everything must be sugar coated or wrapped in cotton, but let's at least attempt to be cautious around the known sore points.

Edited May 28, 2021 by elitts

[CynicalScouter]

25 minutes ago, elitts said:

Lawsuits and settlements (in and of themselves) are just a fact of life and the cost of doing business in the US.

Right, but what was argued in other cases as to BSA's liability is that they kept seeing the same things over and over regarding abuse, made settlements, and did nothing else until YP.

That's going to, and has, gone to show negligence; BSA National knew or past a certain point should have known they had a systemic problem on their hands and did nothing/not enough.

BSA has, in effect, acknowledged this in their prior public statements. This was the statement of Jim Turley as Chair of the BSA Board. Bold in original

Quote

On behalf of myself and the entire Scouting community: I am sorry. I am devastated that there were times in the past when we failed the very children we were supposed to protect.

That's not the only statement where BSA has admitted they "failed", but it is the one that was released simultaneous with the bankruptcy filing.

In other words, there's an acknowledgement BSA erred. The only question left is how much will that cost and when will it be paid.

Concerns to the contrary are at this point utterly moot.

Edited May 28, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ThenNow]

5 minutes ago, elitts said:

But the existence of lawsuits and settlements in our country doesn't always indicate a "problem".  If it did then virtually every major hospital in the country would be guilty of ignoring their "problem" since most of them have plenty of suits and settlements on their books.  Lawsuits and settlements (in and of themselves) are just a fact of life and the cost of doing business in the US.

Watching my wife in her role as the risk executive for a hospital system, I think there is a critical difference. Claims, suits, settlements and judgements against any system, even one that is vast like hers, have a smattering of varied types of claims. There isn't a clear pattern of one significant type of alleged "negligence/malpractice" year after year. Here, we have a singular type injury, reported within a single organization, repeated over and over and over and over again. The two are not comparative nor can one genuinely set the contexts side by side, whether with hospitals or society at large. That is my view anyway.

[CynicalScouter]

9 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Here, we have a singular type injury, reported within a single organization, repeated over and over and over and over again.

This. 1000 times this.

If you are a hospital and you have the SAME problem (MERS) in the SAME way (nursing) in the SAME organization (hospital or even hospital system) and happens TWICE (2), that second patient maybe has a claim for negligence. Maybe.

Happens 10 times? Meh.

100 times?

A thousand times?

That's where those IV files and prior settlements come in. BSA knew, it knew for a long time. It knew it wasn't just limited to one unit or one council. It was systemic.

That means it owns the negligence.

Edited May 28, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[ThenNow]

24 minutes ago, elitts said:

It's fairly clear from the post that Qwaze was attempting to illustrate a point regarding legal liability and the peculiarities of it under US law, NOT actually directing blame at the victims for either filing their cases or staying quiet. 

Apologies to Qwaze. I'm sorry for reacting and not taking a deep breath and a closer look.

[elitts]

21 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Right, but what was argued in other cases as to BSA's liability is that they kept seeing the same things over and over regarding abuse, made settlements, and did nothing else until YP.

That's going to, and has, gone to show negligence; BSA National knew or past a certain point should have known they had a systemic problem on their hands and did nothing/not enough.

BSA has, in effect, acknowledged this in their prior public statements. This was the statement of Jim Turley as Chair of the BSA Board. Bold in original

That's not the only statement where BSA has admitted they "failed", but it is the one that was released simultaneous with the bankruptcy filing.

In other words, there's an acknowledgement BSA erred. The only question left is how much will that cost and when will it be paid.

Concerns to the contrary are at this point utterly moot.

That same argument would work in the case of hospitals though.  They keep seeing malpractice claims and they make settlements, but they haven't implemented anything to stop the malpractice. (To be clear, I'm only arguing that the existence of suits and (particularly) settlements don't automatically indicate culpability since in so many cases settling even a rediculous case is preferable to litigating it) 

As far as their public statements, well, that's PR.  Even if the BSA was firmly convinced that they have no moral or legal culpability, there is no possible statement to be made in a situation like this but than to apologize for "not doing enough" because any attempt at making a rational explanation of what you actually think is going to get you crucified publicly, regardless of whether or not you make valid points.  In fact, I could probably make the argument that "I'm sorry we didn't do enough..." is kind of the corporate version of "I'm sorry I made you upset" in a relationship. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by elitts

[CynicalScouter]

2 minutes ago, elitts said:

They keep seeing malpractice claims and they make settlements, but they haven't implemented anything to stop the malpractice.

But the difference is the malpractice types.

If it is the SAME malpractice, in the SAME way, occurring over the course of YEARS? Yep. That hospital's going to be on the hook for negligence.

[mrjohns2]

13 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

Happens 10 times? Meh.

100 times?

A thousand times?

This argument has started to change my mind. I may be coming around to agree with you. 

[DavidLeeLambert]

13 hours ago, Muttsy said:

[quoting a letter to the Court] "To put this into perspective, here is an average cost for a scouting year (per scout).

• $126 (annual membership)
• $200-$300 (annual troop dues to pay for patches, rank items, and other BSA mandated items)
• $240-$300 per year for unit campouts
• $350-$450 per year to attend a Council Summer camp (varies by Council)
• $2500-$3500 per BSA High Adventure (Philmont, Sea Base, Bechtel, Norther Tier) *this is just the cost for admission and doesn't cover travel costs to get there, activities at those events, or extra "add-ons".
• $250 per year for misc. things like Order of the Arrow, NBZ, Mic-O-Say, and other BSA sanctioned events."

The writer of the letter is either doing sloppy math, or imagining a unit that's an expensive outlier, or both.

I have kids in a Pack and in a Troop in another council (not Middle Tennessee, mentioned in the letter) that also adopted a $60 per youth "program fee" this past year.

For the Pack, the cost of the program per youth as seen by a family is as follows:

• $126 per youth registration (national dues plus council program fee)
• $85 per youth dues
• In a typical year, possibly $20-$30 per person for extra campouts beyond the first, or optional "fun" events, like a whole-family waterpark trip. In the COVID year, we had none of those.
• $33 net registration for any adult who registers as a leader supporting the Pack (the pack covers part of that out of youth dues/funds raised)
• Option of going to summer camp at Council cost, $150 for 3-day resident camp, other options are cheaper
• The Pack does sell popcorn.  In some years, one incentive for high sellers has been for the Pack to pay the fees for one session of summer camp, or waive the fee for a "fun" event.
• If a new parent drives out to the nearest Scout Shop and talks to the salesman, or goes online at the BSA website and goes crazy clicking, sure they can spend $100 or more on all the uniform parts and accessories, and even a toy or two; but the uniform is technically "optional", and the Pack has a Scout Closet with some gently-used shirts and other items, so a family that wants or needs to be thrifty needn't spend anything.
• The Pack covers books, Pinewood Derby kit, den activity supplies, etc., out of dues and raised funds.

For the Troop, the cost of the program per youth as seen by a family is as follows:

• $126 per youth registration.
• Dues, in theory. These were waived one year because of the membership-fee increase, and discussion so far has considered something that will be a round figure when paid monthly, either $60 or $120 per year, probably not more than that.
• $20 per person fee for a typical weekend campout or other activity, JTE goal of 12 per year. This covers site rental (whether at Council, or at a state park, or at a campground operated  by some other youth-focused nonprofit), admission if it's a "fun" event like a museum visit, food budget for the boy who buys his patrol's food, gas reimbursement for the parent who pulls the troop trailer, and any excess could be considered dues by another name.
• Summer camp, if the troop goes that year (not every year), $350 per youth to Council, plus a bit extra to the Troop for a special T-shirt, extra food, gas for trailer, etc.
• Or expenses for High Adventure; if the troop runs it directly it can be lower, maybe as low as $200 per person for a trip that's closer to two weeks; depending on the destination. A trip to an HA base would be a lot more expensive, of course.
• The Troop has not sold popcorn since my boys started meeting with it. During COVID, we started collecting/accepting returnable cans, and when things opened up enough we returned them. And we recently started cleaning the stands at a racetrack to raise funds.  The Council has not asked for any cut of any funds we've raised those ways.
• Once again, it's possible to spend close to $100 on a book and new uniform, but a boy's book should last him the time in the program, and he shouldn't go through more than two or three shirts even in the worst case.
• The Troop pays for required leadership training out of dues/raised money; for example, a Wilderness First Aid session for the SPL and one adult this year (about $51 per person) , or NYLT for the new ASPL ($275 to Council for a week-long camp).

There may be troops out there that send a contingent to an HA base every year, but I don't know when the last time is that my boys' troop has visited one. At recent training I attended, some leaders and boys from other troops were planning to visit a HA bases this year or next, but even for them it sounded like they don't go every year, and only take older youth, Venture/Explorer age.

When I was a youth I was in an LDS unit, and my older boys each started in an LDS unit.  In LDS units, the Church paid for most of the cost of the program, including registration for every participant (even non-LDS participants), campsite fees, supplies, awards, and adult training fees. Sometimes food at events was covered out of the applicable church budget, sometimes it was pot-luck or bring-your-own. The only thing an LDS troop was allowed to have a fundraiser for was one long-term camp per year, whether that was for Council summer camp, or some high-adventure activity.

And the high-two-digit fees are very recent. Remember, the youth registration fee went up to $33 in 2017. In 1989, it was $7 per youth.  I'm still looking for what the fee was during the peak of the abuse-claim dates (roughly 1968 through 1973), but I suspect it was even lower, maybe only $1 or $1.50. 

The difference hasn't been enough to build a complete fund for victims of abuse, but I'm sure much of it has gone to and will continue to go to the costs of litigation, either directly (this case, and prior lawsuits), or indirectly (higher insurance to BSA and councils), or very indirectly (higher insurance for other youth organizations, and their suppliers, and companies that donated in the past but can no longer afford to do so).

(Does anyone have a link to a record of BSA registration per boy by year? Or remember what it was in the early '70s, or even early '80s?)