Chapter 11 announced - Part 3 - BSA's Toggle Plan

[CynicalScouter]

49 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Statements like that are explicitly factually wrong.  BSA has acknowledged and agreed that a debt is owed for wrongs.   They have said that for years now.    

Yes, they said a debt is owed....and then proceeded to

1. Offer a low ball number
2. Play a shell game over ownership and the status of Summit (and then REFUSE to turn over any of the financial documents about that transaction when asked, I expect the next step will be a subpoena demanding the production of documents).
3. Made a sweetheart deal with Hartford that even Hartford in an investor call said was amazing (in that it was so low).

Etc.

 

[Rabid]

The mental fallout from my abuse was mostly dormant prior to the current lawsuit. It would still torment me in idle moments. Or at night sometimes when I lay in bed trying not to blame myself after so many years for something I didn’t even understand at age 11.

After I signed onto the lawsuit I began to scavenge info from the web, constantly looking for updates. It became almost an obsession.

Thats how I found this forum. The dialog here calms me to a degree. Perhaps being among birds of a feather, both as a survivor and as a former Scout.

Please don’t lock the thread. It’s a valuable resource. And I’m sure there are others lurking quietly, watching as well.

[ThenNow]

39 minutes ago, Rabid said:

The mental fallout from my abuse was mostly dormant prior to the current lawsuit. It would still torment me in idle moments. Or at night sometimes when I lay in bed trying not to blame myself after so many years for something I didn’t even understand at age 11.

After I signed onto the lawsuit I began to scavenge info from the web, constantly looking for updates. It became almost an obsession.

Thats how I found this forum. The dialog here calms me to a degree. Perhaps being among birds of a feather, both as a survivor and as a former Scout.

Thank you for posting and staying strong. This reiterates what I have said. It exploded in our laps afresh and ablaze in our hearts and minds. Hang in there and thanks, again.

[MattR]

42 minutes ago, Rabid said:

Please don’t lock the thread. It’s a valuable resource. And I’m sure there are others lurking quietly, watching as well.

Thanks for the feedback.

[ParkMan]

@MattR - I saw your post and read several of the surrounding comments.

I suspect that it is impossible to sperate people's feelings of the lawsuit, the BSA, and child abuse.  Even if this topic was simply numbers and motions, those discussions would still be centered around whether the BSA was paying enough or not.  This is simply too charged a topic for dispassionate analysis.

No matter what we do, people will come back to those core issues around the lawsuit.  I think we have to recognize that fact and do our best to be tolerant of each other here.  Generally this forum does a good job of that.   Yes, I do wish the topic wasn't as negative as it often is - but I think it's simply unavoidable. 

I, like others, would encourage you not to lock it.  Overall it has been a useful service to have this topic.  People want to discuss it, and this forum provides a useful service in having a place to channel those discussions. 

 

 

[Eagle1993]

A few more objections to BSA's plan coming in  ..

Roman Catholic Archbishop of San Francisco joins onto the LDS objection

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/a1574d50-34c6-4ea1-9439-648b88930a77_3853.pdf

The Coalition of Abused Scouters & Future Claimants Rep join the TCC in objecting to the Lehr settlement (that was the $3M settlement BSA proposed for Lehr).  I figured this was coming.

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/774c8ab1-d275-4150-bb65-09f0b7a8d4ef_3854.pdf

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/d71e341e-8270-451a-9948-1a0d75ccc7f4_3851.pdf

Travelers & AIG object to the BSA disclosure

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/a05021f6-6dd1-4325-8763-bd2e458874e6_3806.pdf

I probably should just wait and see if anyone doesn't object to BSA's current plan.  Now that would be news.

[CynicalScouter]

3 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

Also a bit surprised about this.  BSA plans to disclosure their abuse settlements 2016 and later ... but is refusing to release data prior to 2016.  I wonder their motivation and this one doesn't sit well with me, especially if it is data (not individual names that were not charged/convicted).

Still denying/in denial. If they release the number and details of settlements, plaintiffs will be able to claim in any lawsuit against LCs and COs that they knew or reasonably should have know that BSA was a haven for sexual predators for years, therefore they are negligent for not supervising/weeding then out.

[CynicalScouter]

3 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

This details out the history & current status of the HA base fight.

Copious amounts of salt here, but I am struck by the fact that, so far, TCC has only been fighting over Summit. It could mean that a) they aren't even going to bother going after the other three or b) they are just waiting to finish fighting over Summit which is by far the biggest potential prize at $300+ million then turn their attention to the other three.

That said, again, BSA and JP Morgan are playing a shell game with Summit. All it takes is a 1 hour phone call and some PDFs emailed back and forth showing the true status of these loans, liens, and promissory notes and TCC either a) goes away or b) has enough to have the JP Morgan/BSA deal struck down as fraud.

The fact that BSA is fighting tooth and claw to keep the TCC from looking at the financials tells me all I need to know.

Edited May 13, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

22 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

I probably should just wait and see if anyone doesn't object to BSA's current plan.  Now that would be news.

So far, Hartford and JP Morgan would be the only ones.

[Eagle1993]

36 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

TCC has only been fighting over Summit. 

TCC is fighting for all $650M ... but it seems like much of the focus is Summit.  Here is more from their objection:

- They reference $650M ... that is more than Summit ... that must include Philmont, Sea Base & Northern Tier

Quote

61. Through the Restricted Property Action, the TCC contests the Boy Scouts’ position that most of its assets are unavailable to satisfy abuse claims due to charitable restrictions. Resolution of the disputes concerning the Restricted Assets is required to determine whether over $650 million of real estate and financial assets titled to the Boy Scouts are property of the estate available to satisfy abuse claims.

 

- See below where TCC is making requests for BSA to offer evidence at trial and they refuse to.  TCC appears to be saying, reject every plan until BSA provides evidence & this issue can be settled.  I agree 100%.

Quote

64. In an effort to streamline the Restricted Property Action, the TCC has made repeated requests that the Boy Scouts inform it whether it intends to offer evidence at trial to meet its double burdens of proof or if it intends to attempt to convince the Court that Judge Sontchi’s opinions should not be followed. If the former, the TCC has requested the prompt production of the evidence that the Boy Scouts will rely on at trial to meet its burdens of proof. If the latter, the matter may be disposed of by summary judgment. To date, the Boy Scouts has refused to do either.

 

[CynicalScouter]

6 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

See below where TCC is making requests for BSA to offer evidence at trial and they refuse to.  TCC appears to be saying, reject every plan until BSA provides evidence & this issue can be settled.  I agree 100%.

Thank you. Yes as I said before: BSA could solve the Summit/JP Morgan question in 1 hour if they so desired. Instead they opt to stonewall and withhold info.

Edited May 13, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[fred8033]

5 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Yes, they said a debt is owed....and then proceeded to

1. Offer a low ball number
2. Play a shell game over ownership and the status of Summit (and then REFUSE to turn over any of the financial documents about that transaction when asked, I expect the next step will be a subpoena demanding the production of documents).
3. Made a sweetheart deal with Hartford that even Hartford in an investor call said was amazing (in that it was so low).

Etc.

 

Welcome to the reality of the legal game.  It's how it works. 

[fred8033]

5 hours ago, ThenNow said:

If mine is a worthy voice, I would be happy to contribute my thoughts and suggestions on a separate thread. From the jump, and a couple of these are things I've previously posted and few have proven successful as I've begged for a "back off," I would start with:

1) Request a reduction or elimination of all caps and/or repeated bold font statements when the post is emotionally charged (or maybe always?). I have fallen into part of that and could've adequately made my point(s) with underline or italics. This is a visual medium and what we see, not only read, has a HUGE impact. (Did that on purpose. See what I mean?)

2) Continue to stay the hand of lawyer bashing, other than to note particular communications or report what's going on with attorneys involved in the case. (Well done us, so far. I'm grateful. Thanks, Moderators.);

3) Continue to stay the hand of using "abuse/abused" and "victim/victimized" to describe the impact of program reductions and increased fees on Scouts and Scouters. (Again, thanks for the respect shown since my plea);

4) Stay the hand of direct juxtaposition of the emotional impacts of the bankruptcy on Scouts and Scouters with the emotional and psychological damage of sexual abuse survivors. I do not want to minimize. Please trust me. I had a breakdown when my son's wanted to join Scouts and lost my company in a bankruptcy sale two years later (as I bounced around in treatment and hospitals). I get it. I really do and I hate to see anyone lose what they love and built; and

5) If a poster has already made a specific point, instead of reposting or further extrapolating and going off about having to repeat oneself, just link to the post. Not sure how to do that, but it would allow me/us/one to go back, find the conversation where the points were being discussed, educate myself on what I missed and then fast forward back to the current stream of post.

Just my thoughts.

 

Your points reflect a desire for a one sided presentation which denies the reality of the current day.  Your points simply silence opposite views. 

It's hypocritical to continue to bash BSA and it's leaders yet complain about protests against the $1500 per hour legal fees.  

Yes.  The present and the future will not be better because of this bankruptcy.  

Most of these threads just re-hash the same arguements without much enlightenment on the actual bankruptcy.

 

[fred8033]

64. In an effort to streamline the Restricted Property Action, the TCC has made repeated requests that the Boy Scouts inform it whether it intends to offer evidence at trial to meet its double burdens of proof or if it intends to attempt to convince the Court that Judge Sontchi’s opinions should not be followed. If the former, the TCC has requested the prompt production of the evidence that the Boy Scouts will rely on at trial to meet its burdens of proof. If the latter, the matter may be disposed of by summary judgment. To date, the Boy Scouts has refused to do either.

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

- See below where TCC is making requests for BSA to offer evidence at trial and they refuse to.  TCC appears to be saying, reject every plan until BSA provides evidence & this issue can be settled.  I agree 100%.

 

I'm a West Wing fan.  A favorite episode is when Toby Ziegler has confessed to revealing a national secret.  Toby wants to tell everything to the white house attorney and FBI.  Toby's lawyer finally shows up and points out that confessing your soul may feel really good, but it's an incredibly stupid thing to do.  Toby finally follows her advice.

 

#64 refers to a "trial"?  Is the trial scheduled?  Is BSA in pre-trial discovery process?  Or are we in mediation to find a way out of the bankruptcy?  

Obviously, I'm not a lawyer, but trials have painfully detailed rules for disclosure ... expert witnesses, research, reports, etc. ... effectively revealing a trial strategy

Until that process starts, BSA is in a negotaiton process with creditors ... aka mediation ... subject to similar PROs and CONS listed here.  

             https://www.advocatemagazine.com/article/2019-august/sharing-information-at-mediation

The article is not a perfect match ... but it does reflect it's not good legal advice to give the opposite party all your legal plans before you are required to do that. 

I'd like to see all information and all the plans of what will be introduced at a trial, but that may not be good legal advice.   

 

 

[RobertCalifornia]

34 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Obviously, I'm not a lawyer, but trials have painfully detailed rules for disclosure ... expert witnesses, research, reports, etc..   

 

 

I’m not a lawyer either. But, I believe CynicalScouter holds title to esquire. He and other attorneys have provided some great insight into this case. Are you sure that you have read all the threads related to this case?

100 million has been wasted thus far and most of this could have been hashed out while waiting for Nov.16. 

With litigation looming, BSA thought they could enter bankruptcy and at worst have 20,000 victims. Well, that is no longer the case. 

None of us here  can determine the fate of this case. Some will determine the future of their local Scouting whatever that may look like.

I have been paying attention. Bankruptcy is only about math. It cares not the least for our feelings.

There are only two questions: how much? And when?

 

 

Edited May 13, 2021 by RobertCalifornia
Speling