Chapter 11 announced - Part 3 - BSA's Toggle Plan

[Eagledad]

52 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I will challenge the notion that the mild discomfort of some is the same or equivalent "hell" (word used) as a child sexually assaulted.

I will dare anyone with even a modicum of humanity to challenge that premise.

Of course, your reputation for self-righteous posts proceeds this post. Condescending implications are immature at the very least and rarely ever produce positive outcomes. In fact, it usually produces the opposite results. 

There  is no doubt you would be jumping into anyone treating your kids what you claim you are justified doing on this list.

Scouting is exactly about teaching scouts how to use the scout law for giving a personal perspective without being  demeaning or insulting. Intellectual discussions requires to first respect the other persons and presenting oneself without unwelcoming words or tone.

Neutral or welcome discourse requires practice, but the person must want to practice first. 

Barry

[CynicalScouter]

4 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

Scouting is exactly about teaching scouts how to use the scout law for giving a personal perspective without being  demeaning or insulting.

I find it demeaning and insulting to suggest that the mild discomfort for some scouters is a  "hell" in any way equivalent to the sexual abuse of minors. But you know, that's just me and my personal perspective I guess.

Edited May 12, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[jr56]

Some people feel that way,  I may not agree with that, but I at least acknowledge their right to their opinion.

It doesn't necessarily mean that they don't care about the victims.

 

Quote

 

 

[CynicalScouter]

1 hour ago, qwazse said:

Could it be that BSA believes that if it is liquidated

No one other than Kosnoff is calling for liquidation. Nice straw man.

[CynicalScouter]

13 minutes ago, qwazse said:

Nor is showing how this will be a net benefit to youth going forward ...

That's not the purpose of the bankruptcy or the settlement. The purpose of a bankruptcy is for the debtor (BSA) to pay off its debts (in this case, money owed to the victims of child sex abuse).

Period.

And BSA is going to pay.

As always in a bankruptcy we are only talking about two questions: How much and when.

Edited May 12, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[MattR]

I would like to not lock the thread but we seem to be in a rut that we need to get out of before any progress can be made. Here are some observations that might help.

First, human dignity is the cornerstone of the Bible. (yep, hang in there.) It is used to resolve conflicts. It is the goal of how to treat each other. The level of evil or sin is based on how much indignity one causes another. Shy of murder I can't think of anything more undignified then an adult chronically abusing a child. The main subject is child sexual abuse but we also heard about parental abuse yesterday.

Next, PTSD can cause people to boil over with anger. I've had scouts in my troop with PTSD and I've volunteered at a veteran's support organization that dealt with a lot of PTSD. All I can say is their anger can take over any rational thought. It just is. I can't fix it. I can't change it. All I can do is control how I respond to it.

At the same time this forum is mostly people that have spent a lot of time donating their time and resources to scouting. When your year pin only measures decades then you've invested a lot of time. We're dealing with the shock of the upcoming change, which nobody knows at the moment. While I respect the pain of watching something one has built getting washed away by the court system, it does not compare to the indignity of chronic child abuse. Everyone says they understand that and yet, when emotions boil up, there's the stray comment that starts with "I understand, but ...." All I ask is that you please try and understand how this comes across to someone that has suffered a horrible indignity. We can't control the outcome of the legal process. We can only control how we react to each other on this forum. There are people here that struggle with controlling their anger and we need to be Kind. Right now things are going really bad. Let's live up to what we believe in.

Now, for the important points being made. Yes, the BSA has done a lot of good. Yes, most of us have donated a lot of time and don't want to see that thrown out. Yes, the claiment side is not perfect and deserves some critique. Yes, the 85k cases are not at all well understood. Yes, constantly posting the same thing over and over is like shouting to someone that doesn't speak your language. Yes, the legal system is like operating with a chain saw. And yes, no matter what anyone says, Strang still bothers me. But, what can we do? Does anyone honestly think they can change the outcome? What's coming will be. All we can do is control how we react to it. That's it.

This forum, however, we can control. Just a suggestion:

This thread is about chapter 11. I would be fine saying any post not related to that will be removed. And I mean anyone's opinions as well. The 1000 links posted above would be removed as they don't contribute to understanding what has been done in the court. One link to one website with the reports is all that's needed.

We can start another thread about what is fair and what you'd like to see related to chapter 11. How do we keep that civil? How do we deal with comments that just grate on some people's nerves? I'd like to just ask everyone to be more scout like, but that won't work. I barely have the time to read them. If people want to talk about how they want to rebuild scouting once this is over, that's easy, go for it. But don't try to change someone else's opinions or discount them. The only way out of these disagreements is to better understand where people are coming from. I learned something yesterday from @Eagle94-A1 that surprised me and it probably took some courage to put it out there. The same goes for @ThenNow.  As I understand what people have experienced it's easier to appreciate their point. Some comments are just trying to get in someone's face. The most trouble I get into is posting late at night when I'm tired. Again, any ideas on how to control it? Some people react well to me hiding their post and telling them what's wrong. Not sure about others.

If anyone has constructive ideas on how to keep things civil and moving forward feel free to post. I don't know what the other moderators think about all of this, and I clearly haven't considered it too long. Maybe we can discuss this elsewhere.

 

 

[CynicalScouter]

On 5/12/2021 at 3:43 PM, MattR said:

But, what can we do? Does anyone honestly think they can change the outcome?

This for me is one of the jarring parts. As if somehow when BSA entered bankruptcy that some magic wand was going to make all the sexual abuse claims go away.

There are some facts about this bankruptcy, any bankruptcy, that people are still not grasping.

1) The debtor is going to pay. That's a given. The debtor [BSA] admits it has to pay SOMETHING. The only questions (and I cannot stress this enough) are how much and when.

2) *deleted by moderator as disallowed content* I am sick and tired here and elsewhere (at Roundtables, etc.) of hearing about how all 84,000 people are liars and how the lawyers all put the 84,000 liars up to this and there's no way this could be true because BSA is just so perfect and "I've been in scouting 20 years and I PERSONALLY never saw it, so well." Etc.

3) "They are punishing today's kids." You know what? Today's kids may in fact miss out on somethings. But you know what? The victim's are not to blame, nor are their attorneys. Want to lay the blame for sexual abuse claims of DECADES ago being paid for TODAY? Blame (in this order) a) the absuers, b) the leaders of the time who tried to cover up and/or failed to exercise ANY oversight over these leaders (BSA, LC, and COs own this, each to a differing degree) and c) state legislators who reopened the windows.

I do NOT blame and do NOT see the abuse victims (or their lawyers for that matter) "punishing" today's kids. The victims and lawyers are operating within the legal framework that the state legislatures (UNANIMOUSLY or nearly so in each state) gave them in a bi-partisan fashion.

4) Go back to item 1). BSA is going to pay. This is a function of pure math at this point. Yes, victims have emotions, yes scouters who are losing their beloved camps have emotion. It doesn't matter if the day YPT went into effect in 1989 (?) not a single scout was ever abused again. The question is what does BSA owe the sexual abuse victims. In the end, this is a bankruptcy and bankruptcy is all about math.

Now, you can look at that math and say "There is no way we survive with only 1 camp, or no camp." Or you can look at the math and say "My Council cannot afford to give away 50%-75% of its cash assets." Or you can wrap you head around the idea that BSA (and your LC and possibly your CO) is going to pay. The question is how much and how do you live on what happens next.

5) If you feel like venting, start asking. The TCC has, or will, be handing out the plans they have for LCs. If feel like venting, want to know what is going on, CALL YOUR SCOUT EXEC. The problem is this forum is all we have. We are NOT going to get public information from BSA, LCs, or COs because their lawyers are going to tell them "shut up and let the lawyers do the talking." But you might get more information out of some of these upcoming town halls or even just picking up a phone and asking: how many camps will we have to sell? Etc.

Edited May 16, 2021 by elitts
disallowed commentary for this thread.

[gpurlee]

I would agree with the other moderators that we need everyone's help to:

(1) Be respectful of each other and to value diverse opinions.  This is one topic that not all of us will share the same perspective. And that is the value of this forum.

(2) Take a moment to reread what you have just written and make sure that it says what you intend it to say (and refer back to point one)

(3) Try to avoid reposting the same point over and over again.  After a while it really detracts from the forum.

A lot of us are emotionally very invested in the Scouting program and wish for the best possible outcomes for everyone in a very difficult, complex situation. You can sense the pain and frustration in many of the comments. The moderators have really struggled to maintain an informative and positive tone in the forum because we recognize the value of being to share our thoughts, feelings and concerns with one another.  But we need your help to continue to do so.

Many of you have stated to us that this is one of the most valuable and informative sources of information that currently exists on-line. Let's keep it that way.

 

[yknot]

One of the valuable things about this thread, in addition to the excellent legal information and analysis, has been the perspectives from people who have actually been abused. I can go to any scouting venue, forum or friend, and hear hundreds of opinions from people who know a lot about scouting but a lot less about child abuse, which is the single biggest crisis ever to face scouting. This is the only place that I know of where a handful of people have been willing to give firsthand accounts of some of the incidents that have all but destroyed something that we love. They've given their opinions. They've asked and answered questions. I can't imagine the kind of courage it took ThenNow, for example, to make his first post here in what he had to know was hostile territory. I thank him for being forthcoming at the cost of what seems at times to be great personal pain. I've learned a lot from his voice.

And while this isn't really our role in this forum, one thought keeps coming to mind for me as I peruse the letters that were posted -- and I could only read a few, they were so gut churning: So many of these abused children, because that's what they were, will probably never get their day in court to tell their story. And so many of them want and need that to help them heal. This forum has at least given a handful of people, who represent thousands, to tell their story to a group of, hopefully, sympathetic scouting peers.  BSA will never do that, but we can.

 

[ThenNow]

3 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

So you are darn right, I'll DARE someone to stand there and claim their discomfort is a "hell" comparable to that suffered by these CHILDREN (at the time).

Every time.

Ditto. I'm there. Shoulder to shoulder on this one.

[fred8033]

2 minutes ago, yknot said:

BSA will never do that, but we can.

Your words are well written ...  until I see "BSA will never do that..." ... this is where we disagree.   Statements like that are explicitly factually wrong.  BSA has acknowledged and agreed that a debt is owed for wrongs.   They have said that for years now.    

Absolutely acknowledge that the sharing of abuse statements from the past is helpful.  That's good to hear. 

Just don't compound a useful statement with yet another accusation that damages the information exchange in this forum.

[yknot]

2 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

Your words are well written ...  until I see "BSA will never do that..." ... this is where we disagree.   Statements like that are explicitly factually wrong.  BSA has acknowledged and agreed that a debt is owed for wrongs.   They have said that for years now.    

Absolutely acknowledge that the sharing of abuse statements from the past is helpful.  That's good to hear. 

Just don't compound a useful statement with yet another accusation that damages the information exchange in this forum.

Let's just agree to disagree on BSA. I think individual scouters' views of BSA have much to do with personal experience. If you had my experiences and saw things from my perspective, you might agree with why I wrote that. And perhaps if I'd had yours, I'd think differently than I do. 

[RememberSchiff]

1 minute ago, yknot said:

Let's just agree to disagree on BSA.

A first step in respecting other opinions. 

[Eagle1993]

https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/c4beb8e1-80a4-4bb4-9ef5-19b94c488fcb_3816.pdf

Another objection from the TCC & team front.  This one is also very interesting.

I found this very interesting.  This details out the history & current status of the HA base fight.  Would be interesting to see if BSA submits an answer tomorrow.  Plus, if JP Morgan can get involved and perhaps a negotiated settlement.

Quote

B. The Restricted Property Action 14. On January 8, 2021, the TCC commenced an adversary proceeding (Adv. Pro. Case No. 21-50032) (the “Restricted Property Action”) seeking a declaratory judgment that Boy Scouts assets having an asserted value of $667,075,374 that allegedly are subject to donor Case 20-10343-LSS Doc 3816 Filed 05/12/21 Page 7 of 32 DOCS_LA:337783.10 85353/002 8 restrictions (“Restricted Assets”) are, in fact, not subject to enforceable donor restrictions, and, instead, are available to satisfy creditor claims.  The Boy Scouts filed its answer in the Restricted Property Action on April 23, 2020. The TCC and the Boy Scouts had their Bankruptcy Rule 7026(f) conference on April 29, 2021. Initial disclosures pursuant to Bankruptcy Rule 7026(a)(1) are due on May 13, 2021. The initial scheduling conference is set for May 19, 2021. JP Morgan Chase Bank has filed an unopposed motion to intervene and the parties are negotiating a stipulation to permit the Official Committee of Unsecured Creditors to intervene as a party. The TCC served its initial document requests and interrogatories on the Boy Scouts on April 30, 2021. No responses have been served to date.

Also a bit surprised about this.  BSA plans to disclosure their abuse settlements 2016 and later ... but is refusing to release data prior to 2016.  I wonder their motivation and this one doesn't sit well with me, especially if it is data (not individual names that were not charged/convicted).  

Quote

After over a year in bankruptcy, the Boy Scouts intends to disclose sexual abuse settlement data only for settlements arising from and after 2016, despite its awareness and possession of data regarding abuse claims stretching back to 1940: On May 7, 2021, the Boy Scouts advised the survivors groups of its refusal to provide any information relating to the decades of scouting child molestation claims arising before 2016.

 

[ThenNow]

3 hours ago, MattR said:

If anyone has constructive ideas on how to keep things civil and moving forward feel free to post. I don't know what the other moderators think about all of this, and I clearly haven't considered it too long. Maybe we can discuss this elsewhere.

If mine is a worthy voice, I would be happy to contribute my thoughts and suggestions on a separate thread. From the jump, and a couple of these are things I've previously posted and few have proven successful as I've begged for a "back off," I would start with:

1) Request a reduction or elimination of all caps and/or repeated bold font statements when the post is emotionally charged (or maybe always?). I have fallen into part of that and could've adequately made my point(s) with underline or italics. This is a visual medium and what we see, not only read, has a HUGE impact. (Did that on purpose. See what I mean?)

2) Continue to stay the hand of lawyer bashing, other than to note particular communications or report what's going on with attorneys involved in the case. (Well done us, so far. I'm grateful. Thanks, Moderators.);

3) Continue to stay the hand of using "abuse/abused" and "victim/victimized" to describe the impact of program reductions and increased fees on Scouts and Scouters. (Again, thanks for the respect shown since my plea);

4) Stay the hand of direct juxtaposition of the emotional impacts of the bankruptcy on Scouts and Scouters with the emotional and psychological damage of sexual abuse survivors. I do not want to minimize. Please trust me. I had a breakdown when my son's wanted to join Scouts and lost my company in a bankruptcy sale two years later (as I bounced around in treatment and hospitals). I get it. I really do and I hate to see anyone lose what they love and built; and

5) If a poster has already made a specific point, instead of reposting or further extrapolating and going off about having to repeat oneself, just link to the post. Not sure how to do that, but it would allow me/us/one to go back, find the conversation where the points were being discussed, educate myself on what I missed and then fast forward back to the current stream of post.

Just my thoughts.

Edited May 12, 2021 by ThenNow