Chapter 11 announced - Part 3 - BSA's Toggle Plan

[ThenNow]

Just now, fred8033 said:

if the right education and training was in place

Okay. Now it's "right education." Got it.

2 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I'd say you are misbranding BSA as a self-interested evil doer.  BSA was filled with millions and millions of volunteer and paid professions who were 100% focused on doing right by the youth.  When things fell below the line, it was the aberration and not the norm. 

Say wha? Did you read that the BSA Executive who handled that case "on the ground" was aware of the drinking and pornography in my Unit? Huh. "100% focused on doing the right thing by the youth"? Okie dokie. Whatever. You and I are "never the twain shall meet" on this score...

[fred8033]

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

The counter argument is what is called "Race for the courthouse door". First abuse victim/case that goes to verdict/settles gets paid out. But the second? Third?

That's been happening for many years.  The latest round after sharing with 80,000+ claimants will get pennies  compared to some of the earlier lawsuits.  

 

2 hours ago, CynicalScouter said:

Any BSA plan that does NOT include LCs results in at least two dozen councils going into their own Chapter 11s the day that BSA's plan is given final approval.

Thus we could have a "partial" toggle? A plan that a) covers BSA and b) covers participating councils but c) allows the other LCs to go it alone.

So it can be.  Business partners have a right to opt in and out depending on their situation.  It's how legal rights work. 

[CynicalScouter]

Push has now come to shove in the demands for Chubb to turn over information on the sweetheart Hartford deal. https://casedocs.omniagentsolutions.com/cmsvol2/pub_47373/495e3a37-0491-4f58-b317-a06ea325238b_3591.pdf

Quote

the Coalition of Abused Scouts for Justice caused a subpoena to be served upon Chubb Group Holdings, Inc. for the production of documents.

You all remember a few weeks ago when I mentioned there were "requests" and "interrogatories"? Yeah, that was the nice, nice way of asking for things.

The attorneys have for the Coalition are now shoving. And what do they want Chubb to produce?

EVERYTHING regarding regarding

1. The Hartford Sweetheart deal
2. The BSA Reorg plan, versions 1.0 and 2.0
3. The motion for estimation (this was when they tried to get the court to come up with a definitive number for abuse claims and costs)
4. How BSA came up with their view that total abuse was $4-7 billion (when TCC is thinking $102 billion)
5. All of Chubb's liabilities for the sexual abuse claims
6. Regulatory filings made when Chubb took over Century
7. When and where Chubb ever denied a sexual abuse insurance coverage claim against BSA or the LCs
8. How much Chubb has paid out or settled prior BSA sexual abuse claims for

And on and on.

I expect Chubb will tell them to go rot and that we are on the glidepath towards a judicially-enforced subpoena/motion to produce documents.

You know, the things that should have happened LAST FALL.

 

Edited May 11, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[fred8033]

2 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Okay. Now it's "right education." Got it.

Say wha? Did you read that the BSA Executive who handled that case "on the ground" was aware of the drinking and pornography in my Unit? Huh. "100% focused on doing the right thing by the youth"? Okie dokie. Whatever. You and I are "never the twain shall meet" on this score...

I never saw the IVF file on your unit.   So, I can only speak in generalities.  But it's awareness is very much different than approval or support.  Often SEs can't do anything until incidents happen.  And the incidents are relative to the times.  Drinking and porn were not automatic ejections back then and definitely don't have the same legal consequences as now.  

My point is BSA had at any time a million leaders (volunteer and paid).  The huge vast majority were righteous upstanding people.  I'm not willing to brand BSA or all the good it did based on the interpretation of select incidents.  

[Eagle1993]

22 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

If @Eagle1993knows of such a case, I'm all ears.

https://whyy.org/articles/boy-scouts-abused-in-other-states-sue-in-n-j-using-untested-strategy/

 

[ThenNow]

3 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I never saw the IVF file on your unit.   So, I can only speak in generalities.  But it's awareness is very much different than approval or support.  Often SEs can't do anything until incidents happen.  And the incidents are relative to the times.  Drinking and porn were not automatic ejections back then and definitely don't have the same legal consequences as now.  

Ain't one. You didn't read or follow what I wrote. We can drop it.

 

4 minutes ago, fred8033 said:

I'm not willing to brand BSA or all the good it did based on the interpretation of select incidents.  

The iron's done white hot and the mark is in place. Reality bites, but there it is. I didn't wield the iron nor did I tear open the uniform to reveal the chest on which it was placed. That was self-inflicted. I understand your defense, but it simply denies what's right here before us on the table in black, white and dollar signs. I do not like broad brushes or guilt by association myself, but this is not morality play or an ethics exam at this point. It is 84,000 sexual abuse claims against the BSA, the application of accounting after asset and claims valuations all in the full view of the laws of liability based on negligence, in particular.

[CynicalScouter]

17 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

https://whyy.org/articles/boy-scouts-abused-in-other-states-sue-in-n-j-using-untested-strategy/

Thanks. As even the article notes: this is a never before tried novel "untested" approach. IF it makes it past a motion to dismiss, then yes, the floodgates open in NJ (and NY) and EVERY claim get filed there.

[mrjohns2]

30 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

I expect Chubb will tell them to go rot and that we are on the glidepath towards a judicially-enforced subpoena/motion to produce documents.

You know, the things that should have happened LAST FALL.

The feet dragging is killing me and the organization. Come on, BSA, we need to get on with it. They seem to think they are in charge here, when clearly they are not. 

[ThenNow]

15 minutes ago, mrjohns2 said:

The feet dragging is killing me

You're not alone, my friend. This has been and continues to be absolutely brutal for many, many of us abuse survivor claimants. Absolutely and unequivocally. I don't know how much you know about PTSD/CPTSD, triggering events, flashbacks, dissociation, mania, hypo-mania, depression, suicidality, self injury, eating disorders and all the other co-morbidities that track with PTSD/CPTSD, but I can tell you from daily personal experience, the has been hell. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by ThenNow

[Eagle94-A1]

It's also hell for those of use who are boots on the ground who have given years of our lives to the organization and have done our utmost to make it better.

[ThenNow]

12 minutes ago, Eagle94-A1 said:

It's also hell for those of use who are boots on the ground who have given years of our lives to the organization and have done our utmost to make it better.

Yeah. Uh, huh. Cry me a river. "Living hell" is relative, I suppose, but puh-lease.

Thanks, again, for diminishing the ongoing horrors of BSA rape victims. It's a bright, shiny, beautiful thing that you can so flippantly put your "pain" on equal footing. You really have no bloody idea what in the world you are doing or talking about. Can you look in the mirror and tell yourself you feel like we do with a straight face and without shame or remorse? Get a grip. Unbelievable. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by ThenNow

[mrjohns2]

Hell maybe an exaggeration and a bad choice if words. It is not at all comparable, so they shouldn’t be compared. They are not the same type of loss. 

Many volunteers have made this their life’s work. It is not kind to try to diminish the  sacrifices they made in money and time, and opportunity costs. Time not spent with spouses etc trying to support and build up an organization that is now being destroyed. These people spent months of vacation time over the years and years worth of weekends.

To claim they are not entitled to their frustrations and anger and emotion of the loss is to lose site of our differences and our different life journeys. 

Edited May 11, 2021 by mrjohns2

[SilverPalm]

I do not think that those of us lucky enough not to have been abused are experiencing the same degree of distress over this case as those who were abused.

No matter what Scouting means to us, no matter how much we look fondly back on our time in the Scours, no matter how much we hope it will still be there in ten years, the fact remains that our sorrow over the loss of the program is not as life-shatteringly impactful as reliving this abuse must be for survivors.

They've lived with this for years, decades, or lifetimes. They've turned to drink to dull their pain. Many are in prison. Many, surely, are dead, unable to move beyond the abuse that destroyed them. Even the very best and luckiest of them have likely had trouble holding down jobs and maintaining healthy family relationships.

Comparing our sadness over the loss of the program to, well, that... is inappropriate.  We will move on. If BSA isn't there when my kids are ready for Scouts, they'll join the GSUSA or whatever else is out there. We will move on.  We will survive. Many of the survivors cannot and could not do the same.

It's important that we don't lose sight of that.

[Eagle94-A1]

37 minutes ago, ThenNow said:

Yeah. Uh, huh. Cry me a river. "Living hell" is relative, I suppose, but puh-lease.

Thanks, again, for diminishing the ongoing horrors of BSA rape victims. It's a bright, shiny, beautiful thing that you can so flippantly put your "pain" on equal footing. You really have no bloody idea what in the world you are doing or talking about. Can you look in the mirror and tell yourself you feel like we do with a straight face and without shame or remorse? Get a grip. Unbelievable. 

When have I belittled you and diminished what you went through?

While I may not have had to deal with the trauma you had, I have dealt with this issue, and yes I have had some mental/emotional issues. Two friends were abused by the SM of the first troop I was in.  At the time something didn't seem right, now I know what it was, grooming. I left before anything could happen, but my friends were his next targets. I understand why you didn't report it, because I didn't either. But when I found out what happened after I left, I wish did. 

I had to report one of  the other adults in a unit I was serving in. This was a friend, someone I trusted, It was not easy reporting it. But it was done. It was not pretty, it caused issues, but I would do it again in a heart beat.

But the one that really screwed me up dealt with Cub Scouts. One of the adults was abusing Cub Scouts while at camp. Other staffers and I had to deal with 20-30 emotionally spent Cub Scouts late at night while law enforcement had to deal with the perp and the two victims he had hostage. That was a night was a nightmare. And  I did see a counselor about that night.

So while I may not have been abused, I have had to deal with issues, and they have taken their toll. It's one reason why I am so protective of my Scouts.

And @mrjohns2 has stated, I was one of those volunteers that made it my life's work. I was physically and emotionally abused by my father. Best thing he ever did for me was walk away. The Scouters in the second troop I was in became the role models and mentors. My SM was the father figure in my life, and I was so glad I was able to reconnect with him before he passed away. There was no way I could ever repay him and the others for everything they did for me, except give back to the program. I have missed anniversaries to take care of my Scouts. I am sacrificing  the limited vacation I have with the new company to make sure my Scouts have a summer camp experience this year. I have put blood, sweat, tears, and treasure to provide opportunities to kids like me. And I am frustrated by the situation.

I am frustrated that the ones who need to be held accountable, the perps who abused you and the rest are not being held accountable and justice is being denied.

I am frustrated that  all the good the organization has done, the countless service Scouts have done over the years, is being forgotten because of the the few who abused you and the other victims.

I am frustrated that camps  I have worked at, spending untold hours doing maintenance and upkeep so  the Scouts could have a place to camp, are now will be for sale and will not be enjoyed by future generations of Scouts.

I am frustrated that National and the local councils are screwing around with you and the other victims because it is hurting the program.

I am tired of the lawyers stating they want the complete dissolution of the BSA.

So yes, I too am going through hell. I am sorry you were abused, and this is reigniting old memories. Yes you are going through hell.  But seeing something you love being slowly destroyed is also hell. And if you cannot see that, then we have nothing further to discuss.

 

[MattR]

Okay everyone. Let's all step back for a bit. I can lock the thread and force it but I'd rather not.