Chapter 11 announced - Part 3 - BSA's Toggle Plan

[ThenNow]

40 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

There is an implied expectation of $102 B but because it is so far greater than the value of the BSA and LCs, it is being used to push for more money.  

No there is not. "Implied expectation" in a legal case? What good attorney would be that obtuse and expect to get more clients who want him to negotiate on their behalf. Nope. The TCC offered a legitimate and data-based estimation as a benchmark, since no one else was doing it. Please don't create something out of what is not there, especially by vaporous implication.

40 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

If the TCC is making a large estimate, the maximum amount of money is most likely from the liquidation of the BSA and LCs with the insurance companies contributing generously.  The attorneys say that they want to get the maximum amount of money for the claimants (just established that it is likely through liquidation) so without saying anything, the TCC is after liquidation.

Data-based. Fact-based. Claims-based estimation. I see nothing of the sort "established," other than through an unfounded implication (that doesn't exist). 

40 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

Strang said that he did not care about the survival of the BSA or LCs.  

Show me. I don't believe that's what Jim Stang said. He works for the TCC, as representative of ALL abuse claimants. Right? He has a fiduciary duty to his client. Only his client. "Caring" about the other party, even though I don't think he said he doesn't, is not in the lexicon of requirements for an attorney to fulfill his fiduciary duty. If the BSA fails, that is not his concern and cannot be his focus. He has one concern and one focus; ALL claimants, come what may. Not caring implies malice. I've met him and have listened to him. I think that's a false accusation, but more so irrelevant. 

Edited May 4, 2021 by ThenNow
Oops.

[CynicalScouter]

5 minutes ago, vol_scouter said:

the BSA will be forced into liquidation because it cannot emerge from bankruptcy. 

No, what will happen is that

1. The BSA plans (global, toggle, whatever) will be a) voted on by the sexual abuse victims and rejected OR b) will be so opposed by TCC/FCR/Coalition that the judge simply does not send the plan out for a vote because she knows it will never be approved.
2. BSA's right to come up with its own reorg plan will be deemed forfeit and the "Exclusivity period" will end. This may happen sooner rather than later. The TCC along with the FCR and Coalition or some combination will come up with their own reorganization plan that is approved by the court.
3. That TCC/FCR/Coalition plan will then go to the sexual abuse victims who will approve it.
4. BSA emerges from bankruptcy under the TCC/FCR/Coalition plan.

Edited May 4, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[CynicalScouter]

19 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

But, they aren't negligent for the bad actions of individuals. 

Juries throughout the country already disagree with you.

EDIT: If you know anything about law you know about respondeat superior: the corporation is responsible for the bad actions of its agents.

That means BSA (and LCs and COs) negligently allowed those scouts to be abused by leaders they failed to properly supervise, so now they have to pay.

Edited May 4, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[DavidLeeLambert]

So I did a bit of analysis of the abuse claims data that the TCC shared at the March town hall "for survivors".  First of all a graph of abuse claims by year, linear scale. This may have been in one of the court filings already.

 

It looks like claims were growing exponentially until the lase '60s, and have been falling exponentially since the late '70s... well before the formal adoption of YPT as such.

Then I tried to compare number of victims to state population. Specifically, I compared against a blended fraction of the 1950, 1970 and 1990 censuses. 

There are small deviations, but it looks like the abuse (or at least the likelihood to claim abuse today) is pretty uniform across the country.  Here are the top states for claims-by-population...

State / Country	Claims	Claims per 100,000 Blended Population
Utah	1018	87
New Mexico	754	69
Nevada	390	68
Alaska	205	64
New Hampshire	499	64
Arizona	1193	59
Oregon	1146	51
Idaho	397	51

Those should be a little higher because nearly 10% of claimants did not report a state where the abuse took place, and the real denominator for "new victims per year" should be something like 10 years, for the worst period of 1968-1978.

And lastly, I adjusted the top of the "Chartered Org" table to account for a few hundred claims that were obviously associated with one of the major religious denominations: Catholic for anything with "Catholic" or "RC" in its name, LDS for "Ward" or "Stake" or several misspellings of "Latter", "Methodist" for "UMC" or various misspellings, etc. Here's the adjusted table and graph.

Chartering / Sponsoring Organization	Claims (raw)	Claims (adjusted)
(blank) * or N or DNK or BSA	48041	48144
METHODIST CHURCH	3443	3461
CATHOLIC CHURCH	2280	2832
BAPTIST CHURCH	2774	2790
LATTER‐DAY SAINTS	2236	2261
PRESBYTERIAN CHURCH	1470	1470
LUTHERAN CHURCH	1198	1198
EPISCOPAL CHURCH	503	503
US AIR FORCE * or other US Military	331	489
AMERICAN LEGION	431	431
YMCA	402	402
VETERANS OF FOREIGN WARS	308	322
(all others)	19083	18197

It bears pointing out that roughly two-fifths of the claims did not identify a chartered organization. Another fifth are a hodgepodge of names that are probably churches, but can't definitively be assigned to a denomination based on name alone ("Saint So-and-So" could be Catholic, or Lutheran, or Episcopal, or possibly something else); fraternal organizations; generic "church" or "boy's club"; public schools; fire departments; other public agencies; and simple descriptions of a place ("the lodge in such-and-such park"). I suspect that a lot of those will in fact be a unit sponsored by a fraternal organization, church or unit-specific parent association, but not one that has anything to do with the name currently written.

(Or it could be the case that thousands of the claimants who disclose the "worst" abuse and yet don't know the chartered org, council or state are misremembering the connection to Boy Scouts. or even just making the claim up out of whole cloth.  Perhaps if Century gets its depositions, or another party does some digging and shares their findings, we'll learn more.)

Edited May 4, 2021 by DavidLeeLambert

[ThenNow]

15 minutes ago, Eagledad said:

And, honestly, your response suggest how far you are willing to let this go. You are probably justified, I wouldn't go there anymore. You are victim looking for restoration of your life. Plain and simple. You can't control the system trying to work that out, so don't get in the habit of justifying the wreckage. 

I have pretty much no idea what this means. Go where? Restoration of my life? Good grief. I never said something so silly. I'm not that naive. In fact, I'm close to powerless, as are you. I gather this is a large part of your frustration. Welcome to the clubhouse. "Justifying the wreckage"? Say what? What meanest this?

Edited May 4, 2021 by ThenNow

[Eagle1993]

So ... just a quick reset ... I'm sure others can add/modify.  Just attempting to see where this case stands.

• BSA has created a 2nd settlement offer that has 2 parts.  One with a higher payout that would include LC & COs and settle their lawsuits and and 2nd that would only protect National (with a lower offer).
• BSA negotiated a settlement with Hartford Insurance for $650M.  I believe this is only included if the total package passes (as it includes a settlement for all LCs).
• I don't believe I have seen a formal objection from the TCC to the 2nd offer ... but I'm sure it is coming.
• The FCR and Collation of Abused have formally objected to the 2nd offer.
• Multiple other law firms objected.
• TCC is requesting an estimation of damages for all claimants (they est $102B).  Multiple insurance companies, the BSA, LDS and Methodist Church have filed objections.  I believe the May 19 hearing will discuss this.
• BSA released a schedule/timeline assuming the 2nd settlement offer (either part) is accepted that shows them exiting bankruptcy sometime in August.
• It appears there is some sort of mediation going on this week in New York.
• Court had demanded a mediation in Miami that appears to have solved very little.
• TCC is looking to sue JP Morgan over the Philmont & Summit loans ... but not sure the status of that.

Any other updates?  I know I'm missing a lot, but hard to keep track. I thought it would be good to summarize what will happen May 19th and the status of the various issues in court.

[CynicalScouter]

6 minutes ago, Eagle1993 said:

Any other updates?  I know I'm missing a lot, but hard to keep track. I thought it would be good to summarize what will happen May 19th and the status of the various issues in court.

I would add that

• There is a coordinated effort among at least some lawfirms or parties to send letters to the judge in the case. There are references in some of the letters to an April 27 email from some group (TCC? Coalition? Abused in Scouting?) to send letters to the judge describing their abuse. Under the judge's standing order, the names of those abused, those alleged to have committed the abuse, and other details are being redacted. Those letters started to appear on the court's docket, in earnest, starting this week.

[skeptic]

1 hour ago, CynicalScouter said:

Really? Where? I haven't seen them post on the boards here. Who are they?

What I see are some people here who are aware that

1. The states changed civil statutes of limitations, meaning that
2. Claims against BSA National (and LCs and COs) for allowing thousands of scouts to be secually abused through the negligence have been filed and
3. At least 900 lawsuits are already filed and pending against BSA/LCs/COs with more to follow, therefore
4. There is literally no way BSA/LCs/COs are going to avoid having to pay out and that
5. The only real debate is "How much and when" at this point.

But like I said, if you've seen people posting that "simply want the BSA Corporate to somehow take total responsibility for a societal sickness for which nobody has a cure" please point them out in the future.

Thanks.

 

One, is you Cynical.  You have suggested that somehow BSA did not do enough to stop this from happening.  Reality is that no matter what BSA did  or does, it will never be able to stop abuse entirely, other than simply not have a program or interaction with youth of any kind.  Society, in the past, and still, looks the other way much of the time.  Why, because it is part of the seamier side of the human animal and the cultures in which we live.  You expect BSA, or The Catholic Church, or someone to guarantee that none of these terrible things can or will ever happen.  That is not possible, and surely you know that.  BSA is just the current easy target, and the "vultures" are already peering through their beady eyes at the other youth groups, once they finish with BSA.  And as someone else pointed out in the reparation comparison, you cannot change what happened in the past, nor can you legitimately hold the country, or the corporation, or the church accountable for things today in which they had no say or little or no influence.  The larger issue is rally this idea that somehow, by ruining someone or some corporation, or some church, or some group of mostly civic minded people for the black sheep that slipped in we make someone or society whole.  Not reality, nor is it ever going to fix it all.  A reasonable system that deals fairly and within rational limits deters the worst perpetrators and encourages better vigilance.  Perfection is impossible, and absolute deterrence of evil is also impossible in societies as we know them.  JMO of course.  But, please stop suggesting that I, or others with a bit more rational view do not care about the victims.  We simply do not feel that making current youth victims in a different manner is fixing the problem.  And, T & N, nor any of the other victims will ever be whole, no matter how much they may end up, after the vultures take theirs.

One could ask where the saving and making whole of the lost souls of the porn industry is, especially those that prey on the youngest off the streets and so on.  What is being done about hose ruined lives?  I suspect that there are plenty of possible targets to blame and hold responsible, but they are backed by big power and dark money, and few will even consider taking that on.  What about the perpetrators of suggestive advertising aimed at the young?  We know pretty much who is responsible, but little is done to enforce those laws.  

So now, I will attempt to simply watch from the sidelines as this no win argument ( it is no longer a discussion for the most part).  

Edited May 4, 2021 by skeptic

[CynicalScouter]

11 minutes ago, skeptic said:

You have suggested that somehow BSA did not do enough to stop this from happening.

They didn't. And juries around the nation have agreed with that assessment.

11 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Reality is that no matter what BSA did  or does, it will never be able to stop abuse entirely,

Therefore, BSA shouldn't be held accountable for its negligence because it can never 100% fully stop all abuse, ever? Wha?

11 minutes ago, skeptic said:

You expect BSA, or The Catholic Church, or someone to guarantee that none of these terrible things can or will ever happen. 

No, I expect that when they act negligently they are held accountable.  Pretty simple really.

11 minutes ago, skeptic said:

Perfection is impossible, and absolute deterrence of evil is also impossible in societies as we know them.

No one is asking for perfect. No one. Nice straw-man.

You argument boils down to "because we can never, ever stop ALL bad things from happening, BSA should get a pass for 84,000 instances of sexual abuse."

Uh, no.

Edited May 4, 2021 by CynicalScouter

[yknot]

There are BSA parallel universes. In the perfect world, a BSA would exist that would actually embody scouting ideals and always comport itself in alignment with same. As a result, there would be no serious issues, That BSA would have a robust membership, fully supported volunteers, wise and perceptive leaders, and an ability to model and produce the very best of American youth citizen leadership. We would be proactive stewards and ambassadors of the outdoors and guardians of citizen service and patriotism.

We're stuck in the other universe. 

[MattR]

3 hours ago, Eagledad said:

OK, but somehow the splits loose posts. Or I just don't see the new threads. If that is the case, I apologize. I do agree with the splitting, but this is like the gay issue years back, it's complicated and so intertwined that one specific thread is almost next to impossible.

Barry 

Apology accepted.

Maybe we just need one other thread that deals with things not related directly to the legal system. I think there are some worthy points that you and others would like to talk about but just don't fit in a thread about the legal aspects. You're welcome to start a thread.

[vol_scouter]

18 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said:

They didn't. And juries around the nation have agreed with that assessment.

Therefore, BSA shouldn't be held accountable for its negligence because it can never 100% fully stop all abuse, ever? Wha?

No, I expect that when they act negligently they are held accountable.  Pretty simple really.

No one is asking for perfect. No one. Nice straw-man.

You argument boils down to "because we can never, ever stop ALL bad things from happening, BSA should get a pass for 84,000 instances of sexual abuse."

Uh, no.

So what level is adequate?  There are 84,000 cases out of an estimated 130,000,000 alumni of Scouting which is 0.065% {neither number is truly accurate but should at least be order of magnitude estimates}.  So that is not good enough.  How much better must it be?  What is acceptable?  Seems like you are demanding an unobtainable perfection.  To say that is not to say that legitimate claims deserve compensation so no need to say that again.

The problem is that the number of claimants exceeds the ability of the BSA and LCs to pay.  Even crippling amounts are not reaching levels that the TCC is saying is what has been paid in prior lawsuits.  So either the claimants will get far less than they are wanting or the BSA and LCs will be crippled at best and maybe cease to exist.

[ThenNow]

1 hour ago, MattR said:

Maybe we just need one other thread that deals with things not related directly to the legal system. I think there are some worthy points that you and others would like to talk about but just don't fit in a thread about the legal aspects. You're welcome to start a thread.

What would be the topic? Theories of vicarious liability and the morality of supervisorial accountability? 

 

Edited May 5, 2021 by ThenNow

[vol_scouter]

2 hours ago, Eagle1993 said:

So ... just a quick reset ... I'm sure others can add/modify.  Just attempting to see where this case stands.

• BSA has created a 2nd settlement offer that has 2 parts.  One with a higher payout that would include LC & COs and settle their lawsuits and and 2nd that would only protect National (with a lower offer).
• BSA negotiated a settlement with Hartford Insurance for $650M.  I believe this is only included if the total package passes (as it includes a settlement for all LCs).
• I don't believe I have seen a formal objection from the TCC to the 2nd offer ... but I'm sure it is coming.
• The FCR and Collation of Abused have formally objected to the 2nd offer.
• Multiple other law firms objected.
• TCC is requesting an estimation of damages for all claimants (they est $102B).  Multiple insurance companies, the BSA, LDS and Methodist Church have filed objections.  I believe the May 19 hearing will discuss this.
• BSA released a schedule/timeline assuming the 2nd settlement offer (either part) is accepted that shows them exiting bankruptcy sometime in August.
• It appears there is some sort of mediation going on this week in New York.
• Court had demanded a mediation in Miami that appears to have solved very little.
• TCC is looking to sue JP Morgan over the Philmont & Summit loans ... but not sure the status of that.

Any other updates?  I know I'm missing a lot, but hard to keep track. I thought it would be good to summarize what will happen May 19th and the status of the various issues in court.

Thank you for this update!  It is a good outline a to where the bankruptcy stands.  

This whole process is interesting and maddening at the same time.  Some days I am optimistic that a settlement is near with all sides feeling like it was not what they wanted but is acceptable.  Other days are filled with pessimism that the BSA, local councils, chartered organizations, and insurance companies are severely crippled.  Those thought and emotions are maddening.

The process and how law is formalized and performed is fascinating.   It is not hard to understand how attorneys really like the practice of law.

 

[CynicalScouter]

2 hours ago, vol_scouter said:

So what level is adequate?

The point in which no abuse occurs due to BSA's negligence. That. That's the adequate level.