ThenNow Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) In all of my posting and bantering back and forth, this is really the thing I've hoped to present. What the BSA is facing, whether in the courts or this Chapter 11, is not an amorphous force that gathered in a dark room somewhere to plot the malicious destruction of Scouting. Not whatsoever. We are men, once boys in Scouting like you and your children, who didn't invite the whirlwind. We reaped it. In many cases, to OUR near destruction. None of us expected this when we joined Scouting. None of us would wish this on anyone else. None of us are enjoying or relishing being here. I hope you know this. Perhaps these letters will "help," as painful and difficult as they are to read. Edited May 4, 2021 by ThenNow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owls_are_cool Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 20 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: Again, these are VICTIMS. Not liars (maybe some are, but likely rare). Certainly not "vultures". I dare any of the BSA-can-do-no-wrong defenders to read even 5 of these letters. You won't, of course. Again, most scouters are not child molesters, nor do they try to cover it up on behalf of the BSA, yet these scouters will be affected the most by the bankruptcy. It is the scouts and scouters that will get the brunt of higher cost of the program and it will be much harder to run the local program, because of cutbacks at Council and National. Covid has already shown what the bankruptcy's impact will be. Surely there is a win-win for the scouts and for the victims of past abuse, but I do not see it headed that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 Just now, Owls_are_cool said: Surely there is a win-win for the scouts and for the victims of past abuse, but I do not see it headed that way. Then name the win-win, because it sure looks like "win-win" translates as "BSA pays NOTHING and sexual abuse victims are told to go rot." It's a real bummer that the entity involved is a not for profit rather than for-profit company, but this notion that because BSA is a not for profit working with kids it should be immune from civil liability (because any monetary judgment would "harm the children") is something I will never understand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, ThenNow said: We are men, once boys in Scouting like you and your children, who didn't invite the whirlwind. We reaped it. In many cases, to OUR near destruction. Much easier to focus on calling people liars and "vultures" or focusing on the lawyers than to have to confront the facts about this situation. THESE ARE VICTIMS IN THESE LETTERS. NOT "VULTURES". https://www.scouter.com/topic/32570-chapter-11-announced-part-3-bsas-toggle-plan/?do=findComment&comment=524615 https://www.scouter.com/topic/32570-chapter-11-announced-part-3-bsas-toggle-plan/?do=findComment&comment=524566 https://www.scouter.com/topic/32570-chapter-11-announced-part-3-bsas-toggle-plan/?do=findComment&comment=524547 https://www.scouter.com/topic/32570-chapter-11-announced-part-3-bsas-toggle-plan/?do=findComment&comment=524524 Edited May 4, 2021 by CynicalScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owls_are_cool Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 5 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: BSA pays NOTHING BSA is scouts and scouters. To say they are not paying nothing is wrong. The adult leaders and the scouts in my troop are already paying in higher registration fees and less support from council and national. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said: BSA is scouts and scouters. To say they are not paying nothing is wrong. The adult leaders and the scouts in my troop are already paying in higher registration fees and less support from council and national. To clarify: it seems what you and others want is for BSA to not pay one thin dime more than has already been spent (and that that money never should have been spent in the first place) towards any settlement or civil judgment regarding sexual abuse of scouts. In other words: your definition of "win-win" is "BSA pays $0 as part of the abuse settlement and the sexual abuse victims are told to go rot" All because BSA is a not-for-profit that works with kids? Wha? That fact does NOT and should NOT make BSA immune from civil lawsuits regarding its negligence. Edited May 4, 2021 by CynicalScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThenNow Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) 14 minutes ago, Owls_are_cool said: The adult leaders and the scouts in my troop are already paying in higher registration fees and less support from council and national. Just for context and contrast, I am only one of the BSA sexual abuse survivors. Let's talk about costs and fees. My in-patient, out-patient, therapy, psychiatry, medical and medication costs from 2000 until today is not less than $500,000. I'm sure that's low, because my therapy costs were around $100,000 over 20.5 years and one stint in treatment runs between $30,000-$60,000. I've done several. And, that does not include lost wages (HUGE NUMBER) or any of the "emotional and psychological" damage caused to my family and me. What has/will the abuse settlement cost you and other Scouts and Scouters? Hm? PS - I've been told a few times on this forum, directly or by implication, that I'm "whining" and spouting "psychobabble." As they say, show me the receipts. Dollar signs are neither. I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Let's compare... Edited May 4, 2021 by ThenNow 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owls_are_cool Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 24 minutes ago, CynicalScouter said: To clarify: it seems what you and others want is for BSA to not pay one thin dime more than has already been spent No, I want the people directly responsible for the abuse and cover-up to pay, not the scouts today. Is it my fault that many of these people are dead, so their bill is passed on to me and my troop's scouts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Owls_are_cool Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 20 minutes ago, ThenNow said: Let's talk about costs and fees. How much of those costs to you expect me and my troop's scouts to pay? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 Just now, Owls_are_cool said: No, I want the people directly responsible for the abuse and cover-up to pay, not the scouts today. Sorry, but that is not how corporate malfeasance works. The corporate entity, BSA, gets certain benefits from being incorporated. It also takes on the burden of being held to all prior debts and civil claims (subject to statutes of limitations). So you believe that BSA the corporate entity should not have to pay one thin dime? You keep dodging the question, but I'll keep asking it. 1 minute ago, Owls_are_cool said: How much of those costs to you expect me and my troop's scouts to pay? Answer is question first, if you can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TAHAWK Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 The focus seems to be not on the corporate entity but on the franchisees. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 (edited) Here's my next question for those who insist that the BSA should not have to pay a DIME to sexual abuse victims According to the preliminary list of abuse claims released earlier there were 18 claims in 2019 and 10 in 2020. If it can be shown in a court of law that BSA officials alive and well today in BSA HQ or at the local level (e.g. Scout Execs) through their negligence allowed those 28 scouts to be sexually abused, who should pay? Only the abuser? The BSA officials out of their own, personal funds? BSA National? Again, this absurd notion that because BSA is a not for profit, therefore it cannot be held civilly liable is just asking, nay begging, for trouble. Edited May 4, 2021 by CynicalScouter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 1 minute ago, TAHAWK said: The focus seems to be not on the corporate entity but on the franchisees. It's both and all. The 900+ suits already filed name: 1) BSA National 2) Local Councils 3) COs 4) Individual abusers 5) Some combinations of the above. Very few (if any) of the suits are against ONLY BSA National, or ONLY the LC. Moreover, if the "franchisees" (LCs and COs) want to get the claimed against them waived, they need to start coughing up some money, ASAP. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eagledad Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 19 minutes ago, ThenNow said: Just for context and contrast, I am only one of the BSA sexual abuse survivors. Let's talk about costs and fees. My in-patient, out-patient, therapy, psychiatry, medical and medication costs from 2000 until today is not less than $500,000. I'm sure that's low, because my therapy costs were around $100,000 over 20.5 years and one stint in treatment runs between $30,000-$60,000. I've done several. And, that does not include lost wages (HUGE NUMBER) or any of the "emotional and psychological" damage caused to my family and me. What has/will the abuse settlement cost you and other Scouts and Scouters? Hm? PS - I've been told a few times on this forum, directly or by implication, that I'm "whining" and spouting "psychobabble." As they say, show me the receipts. Dollar signs are neither. I'll show you mine if you show me yours. Let's compare... This is not a fair conversation. Nobody here wishes you ill will, in fact just the opposite. This is not about us against them, as a couple here keep suggesting, it's about question of fairness over the future of a century old youth organization.. But, every time the discussion veers toward that question, the mod steps in and reformates (deletes) that part of the discussion and then says stick to the subject. Then, the thread starts out away from the question of fairness, but eventually works it's way back, AGAIN. I believe many of the members here want to express a frustration. But, not the moderator. Barry 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CynicalScouter Posted May 4, 2021 Share Posted May 4, 2021 Just now, Eagledad said: This is not a fair conversation. Yes. Don't want to focus on the sexual abuse victims. Let's just pretend they don't exist. Better yet, call them "vultures". https://www.scouter.com/topic/32548-how-far-do-the-legal-vultures-go-a-couple-of-to-me-today-foolish-over-reaches/ https://www.scouter.com/topic/32570-chapter-11-announced-part-3-bsas-toggle-plan/?do=findComment&comment=524615 https://www.scouter.com/topic/32570-chapter-11-announced-part-3-bsas-toggle-plan/?do=findComment&comment=524566 https://www.scouter.com/topic/32570-chapter-11-announced-part-3-bsas-toggle-plan/?do=findComment&comment=524547 https://www.scouter.com/topic/32570-chapter-11-announced-part-3-bsas-toggle-plan/?do=findComment&comment=524524 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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